Horseshit
Last night I tweeted at John Gruber and MG Siegler: "What a load of horseshit. All due respect, but horseshit."
The tweet was in reference to a post on Daring Fireball citing MG's "review" of the Galaxy Nexus. Now, I won't take issue with his review overall. He's entitled to his opinions, and while I certainly disagree with many of his points, I won't knock him because we don't see eye to eye.
I want to state clearly that this isn't about MG and John, who I think are smart guys with lots of really spot on opinions and observations. This is about a particular line of thinking that I fundamentally disagree with (and think is ultimately damaging to our community).
What set me off last night, and what I continue to be unsettled by today, is the passage which Gruber quotes — and ultimately agrees with:
Unfortunately, the system still lacks much of the fine polish that iOS users enjoy. The majority of Android users will probably think such criticism is bullshit, but that has always been the case. I imagine it’s probably hard for a Mercedes owner to describe to a Honda owner how attention to detail makes their driving experience better when both machines get them from point A to point B. As a Honda owner myself, I’m not sure I would buy it — I’d have to experience it to understand it, I imagine. And most Android lovers are not going to spend enough time with iOS to fully appreciate the differences.
Gruber then adds: "You either see it or you don't."
This doesn't get under my skin because I have some kind of allegiance to one brand or another. It doesn't get under my skin because I fundamentally disagree that Android 4.0 lacks the polish of iOS.
It gets under my skin because it is a pompous, privileged, insulting, and myopic viewpoint which reeks of class warfare — and it is indicative of a growing sentiment I see amongst people in the tech community.
And... it's a shitty way to think about other people.
Let's take this point by point.
1: Android users will take criticism about polish as "bullshit."
This is pretty great for MG, because right off the bat he's able to dismiss any arguments which run counter to his by generalizing the entire userbase of Android as confrontational.
2: "It's probably hard for a Mercedes owner to describe to a Honda owner how attention to detail makes their driving experience better." Or rather, it's hard for a rich person to explain to a middle- or low-income person why expensive things are empirically better.
This is so outrageous and insulting, it's hard to believe MG could type the words without being embarrassed and quickly deleting them.
I mean, sidenote to MG — read your words out loud. How are you not embarrassed by them?
For starters, it assumes a childish, simplistic, and pedantic worldview: expensive things or those that are ascribed more value by a segment of the population are inherently "better" than other things. Obviously everyone wants and needs the more expensive thing if they have an opportunity to get it. The Mercedes really is better than the Honda.
It assumes that given the situation, you would always choose the more expensive item, and that your needs or wants couldn't possibly be out of alignment with the features or luxury offered by a more expensive product.
More insultingly, it suggests that as a person who is not part of whatever elite group MG believes exists, you couldn't even really understand why the Mercedes is superior.
As a friend of mine said to me when discussing my tweet, just because you give consumer goods different values than I do doesn't mean you don't / can't know what I know.
To suggest that that's the case here is offensive.
3: "As a Honda owner myself, I’m not sure I would buy it."
Oh okay, MG owns a Honda, so I shouldn't be offended by his previous statements. He's one of us.
4: "Android lovers are not going to spend enough time with iOS to fully appreciate the differences."
Android owners won't spend time with the device to understand how great it is. You need to spend a lot of time with an iOS device to fully appreciate how great it is.
See also: number 1.
5: "You either see it or you don't."
The world is not black and white. It's really, really gray. You can see it and not care. You can see it and love it. You can see it and hate it. You can see it but need something else. You can see it, and yet see other things too.
I've spent years testing phones and mobile devices. I've probably used every significant smartphone that's been released in the past 5 years, and then some. I love Apple products and I see the beauty, refinement, and care taken in the iPhone and iOS. I see it.
I don't disagree with Gruber and MG. The iPhone is an amazing device. But it's not the only amazing device, and I wouldn't want to live in a world where it is.
Let's not let our preferences (and that's all they are, preferences, not empirical facts) dictate how we think about and relate to other people.
Not seeing it is not the issue — the issue is not being able to see it any other way.

There are 703 Comments. Add yours.
Wow. This is… an interesting read………..
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:09 PM EST reply Recommend (24) Flag actions
My keyboard glitched that is why there is about ten periods at the end of read.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:12 PM EST reply Recommend (5) Flag actions
Nothing like seeing JOSH UNLEASHED . . . . . . That’s why I’ll follow this guy anywhere he goes. Speaks his MIND…. PERIOD.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:20 PM EST reply Recommend (50) Flag actions
Amen. I love the brutal honesty.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:14 PM EST via mobile reply Recommend (6) Flag actions
I rarely post but this is an amazing read, as someone who loved his iphone yet recently purchased a galaxy nexus reading MG’s article sickens me that I used to be that way and now realize that they are the Bill O’Reilly’s of the apple world.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 4:25 AM EST reply Recommend (8) Flag actions
Would love to see that honesty in upcoming reviews. What I miss from Josh is an definite opinion. Is this Y better than X or not? He lists pros and cons in very detailed reviews, but seems afraid to take a stance.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 4:48 AM EST via mobile reply Recommend (4) Flag actions
He seems pretty certain that the Galaxy Nexus is better than the iPhone. Maybe not cut-and-clear better, but better in a lot of ways very important to him.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 1:34 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Then why doesn’t he come out and say so?
Posted on Dec 19, 2011 | 4:09 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Why does he need to?
Posted on Dec 21, 2011 | 10:32 AM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
How would that improve the review? Is it not enough to present the good parts and the bad parts of a product, sum up how those balance out the overall experience and let you decide for yourself if that product sounds like it fits your definition of “better”?
Posted on Jan 01, 2012 | 7:17 AM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
Speaks his mind, period? That’s not at all what I see in his reviews, which are ironically where it matters most.
Posted on Dec 19, 2011 | 4:10 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
By the way folks…

Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 4:39 PM EST reply Recommend (37) Flag actions
rofl BRAVO!
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 9:38 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
You’re the man, Josh.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:10 PM EST reply Recommend (52) Flag actions
As a postmodern historian, I can see a bit of Marxism here. That’s not a good or a bad thing. Just noting :)
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:10 PM EST reply Recommend (6) Flag actions
I think we’re best friends.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:28 PM EST via mobile reply Recommend Flag actions
This is my next manifesto.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 5:11 PM EST reply Recommend (7) Flag actions
I thought the same thing when I read this.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 5:30 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Wow…enough said…a lot of what Josh had to say was my first thought during this tweet last nite. very nice and thanks for having the balls to call them out
And this is why I LOVE the verge…
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:11 PM EST reply Recommend (22) Flag actions
Nice rant, Josh. I completely agree with you!
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:11 PM EST reply Recommend (3) Flag actions
There isn’t enough popcorn in the world for what is about to happen in this comment section.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:11 PM EST reply Recommend (25) Flag actions
Sit back and get some earplugs. This is going to be a noisy ride!
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:13 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
This should be on the frontpage of The Verge.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 1:53 AM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:13 PM EST reply Recommend (70) Flag actions
I was wondering how long it would take for the slow clap GIF to appear.. Apparently, not to long.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:14 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I’m always ready with some Orson Welles on hand.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:15 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Here’s another.

Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:15 PM EST reply Recommend (23) Flag actions
The only problem with these applause is that they’re sitting. I stand and applaud.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:31 PM EST reply Recommend (4) Flag actions
This gif is always used inappropriately. He was clapping sarcastically because of how bad the performance he was watching; he’s not pleased at what he see.s
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:34 PM EST reply Recommend (4) Flag actions
I’ve seen the movie.
(I don’t think the internet cares)
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:35 PM EST reply Recommend (27) Flag actions
Nope. We don’t.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:08 PM EST reply Recommend (21) Flag actions
Uhhh, wrong. He’s the only reason the bad performance is taking place. He used his money and power to get his talentless girlfriend onto a stage he himself built. He’s clapping very loudly in an attempt to make everyone else in the audience—which is silent—to clap as well.
If you’re going to be a pedant, it’s usually wise to make sure you’re right first.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:44 PM EST reply Recommend (13) Flag actions
…uhm…that doesn’t sound any better…
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 3:02 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
LOL, awesome.
Rip/shred.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:13 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
…“Gruber waiting in the line for the first iPhone back in 2007”…
Gruber: I could never use a Samsung. I’m creative.
Joshua Topolsky: Dude, you’re a bloger.
And that’s how the war began!
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:15 PM EST reply Recommend (56) Flag actions
Haha 1+
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 4:07 PM EST via mobile reply Recommend Flag actions
Yeah, all except the part where this was the best Samsung could offer in 2007! http://www.infosyncworld.com/reviews/cell-phones/samsung-sch-i760/
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 6:11 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Well, lots of people seem now to subscribe to the theory that what’s most important for smartphones is the apps. That Samsung phone had lots of apps in 2007, and the iPhone didn’t support any at all.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 6:52 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
Countering that, a lot of people agree that the apps are only important because Apple made them important in 2008.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 1:37 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
Or rather – Apple started convincing everyone they’re important then. You always had great apps on smartphones, and they performed as well as they could on significantly weaker hardware.
Posted on Dec 17, 2011 | 10:18 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
Exactly, I love my windows mobile 2001 device I can get just about whatever I want done on it. Even j2me has a decent library of software.
Posted on Dec 29, 2011 | 5:19 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I’m someone who could very easily be called an Apple fanboy but when I read Gruber and Siegler’s posts I was very put off by their really condescending tone. I don’t really expect Gruber or Siegler to display objectivity. I actually think that to a certain extent, objectivity isn’t truthfully all that useful here. You like what you like. But often Gruber and Siegler can just plain be dicks about their support for Apple and disdain for Android or whatever else happens to be competing with Apple that particular day. It makes them seem small in my eyes, and this is a self-declared Apple fanboy talking. Josh, you’re right to call horseshit on this. That’s exactly what it is.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:16 PM EST reply Recommend (45) Flag actions
Completely agree. From recently just switching to Android from iPhones, MG could not be more twisted with his words. What really got me was that he compared the phone to a Zack Morris phone. Let’s get real here.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:16 PM EST reply Recommend (3) Flag actions
People need to tell themselves lies in order to function in this mad, fucked up world. They consume ideas, art, and consumer electronics not just because they might actually add some purpose to their lives, but because it makes them feel like they’re a part of something that simply isn’t there.
So MG and Gruber cast everything in an Apple spotlight. Who cares? That’s how they define themselves. Calling them out on their bullshit isn’t going to change the tint on their glasses.
I’d say live and let live, but it doesn’t matter when people live by defending the choices they make about which operating system their smartphone runs.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:17 PM EST reply Recommend (8) Flag actions
“reeks of class warfare”
Thank you, Joshua Topolsky, for finally saying what needed to be said.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:17 PM EST reply Recommend (19) Flag actions
I don’t see the class warfare aspect of this, Subsidize these phones are the same, and yes the merc is much more expensive then the honda. But I think it’s a bad analogy it be more like comparing a BMW to a Mercedes, both fine vehicles, but people have their preference?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:38 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
Exactly, but MG sees it as a Honda vs MB… and that’s why there’s the class issue.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:40 PM EST reply Recommend (4) Flag actions
I think your taken this a bit too much to heart.
Posted on Dec 17, 2011 | 8:42 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
The “class warfare” comment shows Josh is missing the point on this one. It’s not that the Mercedes is “empirically better” and certainly not “because it’s more expensive.” That’s not what Siegler is saying. He’s saying the experience of driving a merc is better (he doesn’t give any reasons it’s better) in a way which not everyone can appreciate.
I don’t know if what Siegler is saying about the Nexus is right. I haven’t used it. But I can appreciate the metaphor. There is a level of attention to detail which is paid to some products that some people simply do not care about, and for other people it absolutely MAKES the product. For instance, BMW engineers the sound of the closing car door. This is something that subtly affects the experience of driving a BMW. I think this sort of thing is what Siegler was (admittedly poorly) describing.
I think what really annoys Josh about this is that he has a feeling that no matter how good Google makes the OS, the people who love Apple products will find someway to find it inferior. And that’s what it seems like Siegler is doing here: ascribing superiority to the iPhone in a nebulous way. And I think, on this one his anger is justified, not because I think Gruber and Siegler are wrong, but because they’ve failed to describe what makes the iPhone better (at least in this case.). And I believe the responsibility to do so is theirs.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:50 PM EST reply Recommend (76) Flag actions
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head – even better than Josh and in fewer words. Bravo.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:02 PM EST reply Recommend (5) Flag actions
Yes. Exactly this.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:14 PM EST via mobile reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
THIS GUY WINS.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:18 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
I understand and appreciate what you’re saying as well, but I think the original message of the post is more accurate. I think Josh is frustrated with the use of a metaphor like that one, particularly in a time when classs divisions have never been so sharp or so volatile. A statement like the one Josh is criticizing is condescending, insulting’ and hurtful for reasons that have nothing to do with Android or iOS, and it borders closely on ad hominem attacks from people who are supposed to be professionals, or at least ACT professionally. I really don’t think this has anything to do with brand success or loyalty, but with common courtesy and proper treatment of human beings in a discussion about technology.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:31 PM EST reply Recommend (6) Flag actions
It’s possible I’m missing a sensitivity here, but I really don’t see the class aspect to this. Is it the comparison of a more expensive object to a less expensive? In Siegler’s example the Mercedes is the more expensive car, but in the actual comparison of iPhone to Nexus, the nexus is the more expensive item.
The idea that taste is connected to wealth is inferred by the reader, but I don’t think it’s implied by the author.
If you want to try and group the users together by their product preferences (Nexus & Honda in one group, iPhone and Mercedes in the other) to me the only determining factor – albeit a weak one – is technical vs. humanities/artistic. So, let me continue on this assumption, despite its weakness, because I think it leads somewhere interesting. The things that may make the Honda and Nexus superior are technical, and so easily comparable. The things which may make the iPhone or Mercedes superior are artistic. None of us feel like we’re being spoken down to if we’re told something is technically superior, because we’re technical people, and it can be shown by direct comparison. We do feel condescended to if we’re told something is artistically superior, ESPECIALLY if the reasons are not explained. And the reason it is regularly not explained is because it’s difficult to understand – even if you feel it is true – and even more difficult to explain. However, as I said, I do believe it is the responsibility of both Gruber and Siegler to make this explanation. This is the only way they can talk to people outside of their audience (the people who “get it”): explain it clearly to the people who don’t.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 4:19 PM EST reply Recommend (14) Flag actions
Siegler’s comments were not made in a vacuum. There is an assumption that most people aspire to have Apple products, and those that don’t are “jealous” because they can’t afford them. I’ve seen words to that effect several times on the comments section of The Verge alone. In the eyes of the people putting forward this argument, Apple has taken up Sony’s mantle as manufacturers of tech status symbols, both aspirational and somehow exclusive.
The dichotomy may be a false one (given carrier subsidies in America), but that’s irrelevant to the people perpetuating it.
So if you’re aware of that this element exists within the tech fanbase, using Honda and Mercedes as analogies for Android and iOS is a spectacularly poor choice.
There’s also the other problem: Everybody can try an iPhone if they want. It takes TIME to understand iOS’s superiority? Ok.. and this is less true of other platforms? Come on. Read between the lines. It’s not about time or experience, it’s about taste. Apple make sophisticated operating systems for sophisticated people, lowly proles wouldn’t understand. You don’t have to extrapolate especially hard to make that reading. I’d argue it’s the only reading to be made given the current culture of discourse w/r/t Apple.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 3:41 AM EST reply Recommend (5) Flag actions
Those assumptions are yours, and say more about you than about Siegler.
The whole “class warfare” thing is ridiculous, much more insulting than Siegler’s (somewhat clumsy) Honda/Mercedes comparison. There are real problems of income disparity out there, enough that we shouldn’t invoke “class warfare” in arguments between groups of people who can still afford high-end smartphones and data plans.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 1:12 PM EST reply Recommend (6) Flag actions
Really, what do they say about me?
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 1:53 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
I think the “class warfare” comment makes more sense in reference to the “you get it or you don’t” assumption about design than it does economics. MG and Gruber have set themselves up as “design people” who get it, and if you disagree, it’s because you’re a layman who doesn’t appreciate art and real attention to detail.
I think artistic judgement to a certain extent is not something everyone has (witness the Fugly Android tumblr), BUT it’s ridiculous to suggest that EVERYONE that is a design person will prefer and adore iOS and therefore EVERYONE who does not agree must not have any taste, which is exactly what Gruber is saying. It’s that perspective that Gruber writes from constantly and which gets on Android users nerves so easily. "Different strokes for different folks" is not something that enters his lexicon – like he said on the show, his thought process is "it’s either great or it’s crap," and Android can’t be great because than it will be in the same league as iOS…so it’s crap.
Posted on Dec 17, 2011 | 10:33 AM EST reply Recommend (4) Flag actions
I don’t see any hint of class warfare in this response at all. cobyrne’s hit the nail on the head and explains better than Josh what MG was trying to convey. That’s the beauty of the 1st Amendment, MG has a right to voice his opinion on a subject, irregardless if you agree with him or not. I don’t agree with everything MG said but I don’t find anything he said offensive at all.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 2:37 AM EST reply Recommend (3) Flag actions
And Josh has a right to call him out on comments.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 5:03 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
I think it’s both what you are saying and what Josh is saying. I have gone back and forth between iPhone and Android several times now. They both have merit, and I think they both attract a different user base, but to claim one user base “cares more” about the experience than the other is BS, especially if the reasons that one is a Mercedes and the other is a Honda are completely unjustified/unstated. Not to mention are they even purely talking software here or hardware/design? Opinionated messy reviews DO damage the industry and need to stop.
Perhaps let an android user AND an iPhone user review the phone and discuss it before posting a review?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 4:12 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
You’ve exactly nailed it that premium products are often defined by their attention to detail: fine wine, great music, an excellent meal, high-end automobiles, fine art, etc.
But why does taste have to be a class issue? You can find excellence in cheap products, and you can find crap in the high-end.
And why does anyone have to defend their tastes for certain details?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 4:19 PM EST reply Recommend (3) Flag actions
“But why does taste have to be a class issue?” Because, for right or for wrong, it’s been ingrained in the psyche of most human beings that taste equals expensive. Like yourself I don’t agree, but that’s just the way it is….for now anyway.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 2:40 AM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Yes, we will find them inferior because they are ripoffs. It’s also why we root for Win Phone 7 in the marketplace. It’s something different and classy and beautiful.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 4:38 PM EST reply Recommend (4) Flag actions
So then, is it not true that the Notification Center is a blatant ripoff of Android’s notification system?
Let’s be real, it isn’t about who did something first, it’s about who did it best (which is very subjective).
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 5:16 PM EST reply Recommend (8) Flag actions
Yes, its always about who does it best. To quote a startup CEO:
“Don’t worry about someone stealing your idea, worry about them implementing it better than you,”
I would define best as the easiest/simplest user experience for an average consumer to wrap their brains around— thus being financially successful.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 8:36 PM EST reply Recommend (4) Flag actions
My friend get out of here with that Wp7 talk. So you and your 10 friends are rooting for it big deal. Android a ripoff? yeah righ, keep saying it maybe some day we will like wp7.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 9:34 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Even when going along with your debatable point, I don’t believe something has to be original to be good..
Excellent post Josh. It’s especially true that Android is not for people who can’t afford an iPhone. The GNex is more costly unlocked, as well as with a contract.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 4:19 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Exactly.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 5:26 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
“Siegler is saying. He’s saying the experience of driving a merc is better”
Of Course driving a Mercedes is better than driving a Honda, no-one is going to argue that. MG’s analogy is all wrong. Is driving a Mercedes better than driving a BMW? or a Lexus? that would be the correct analogy because they are the same class of vehicle. Would you compare an Android or iPhone or WP7 to a feature phone?… no because its a false analogy, you cant compare them because they are two different class of phones. Same with Honda vs Mercedes, two different class of products, luxury vs utility, smartphone vs feature phone .That is where Josh was right about class warfare.
“For instance, BMW engineers the sound of the closing car door. This is something that subtly affects the experience of driving a BMW. I think this sort of thing is what Siegler was (admittedly poorly) describing.”
I don’t think for one second that is what MG was trying to say, I think he was making the case that the iPhone is a different (superior) class of product than Android. MG basically saying that iPhone is a Mercedes and Android is a Honda, two different class of products and that the iPhone is superior. Where in reality both are amazing products, each has its advantages and nuances that users enjoy and love.
That is why I ultimately have to agree with Josh, that it does reek of class warfare… the feeling I get after reading what MG and Gruber wrote is that " my product is better and if you can’t see why you are the problem"… “its better because I say its better”… “I don’t care if Android or WP7 or Blackberry is perfect for you and you love them, you should still get the iPhone because I say its better”. Its horrible and disgusting.
I watched On the Verge 002 hoping that Gruber would surprise me, I was hoping that he would display at least some critical thinking, but utterly proved himself to be the fanboy that he is. He could even bring himself to say that Google or Microsoft are innovating in the Cloud. In fact he couldn’t even name a single company that he thinks are innovating. I have a feeling that MG would be no different.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 6:00 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
Until you pay the first repair bill.
Some people buy a Mercedes because they feel it’s a superior product. Some people buy them because of the bragging rights. Some people buy Hondas because they can’t afford anything else. Some people Hondas because they don’t need an expensive ride and for what they’re designed for, they perform well.
MG made a rather rough analogy. I think Josh is justified.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 8:39 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
Well if you’ve actually drive a Mercedes vs a Honda you will come to realize it is a much superior product. But you should never let that lead you to believe that if you drive a Mercedes Benz you’re a superior human being. In the eyes of God, All men are equal.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 2:42 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
What about the women?
Posted on Dec 17, 2011 | 7:19 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I have extensively driven the following:
1994 Mercedes-Benz S500
1997 Mercedes-Benz AMG C36 (Yes it was imported.. there are like 4 left)
2004 Mercedes-Benz S430
2004 Honda Civic Si Hatch
I have owned the following:
1997 Acura TL 3.2 V6
2003 Honda Accord EX V6
Let be be plain: Car companies are not products. They cannot be purchased by consumers or reviewed by critics. The demographics these companies are targeting (for the large majority of their products) are completely different. Honda doesn’t have an S-Class competitor, but Mercedes also doesn’t have a Ridgeline competitor. The Civic can in no way be compared to any C-class vehicle (by a sane person). You could make the argument that Accords compete with the C-Class, but I will disagree with that. The large majority of Acura’s have direct or indirect Mercedes competitors, and for the most part: both Acuras and their Mercedes counterparts are excellent.
In conclusion:
Honda and Mercedes both make exellent cars.
Mercedes is German, which means they are extremely complex, yet somehow elegant machines. They are also a luxury brand, so the prices and vehicle configurations reflect that. The reliability of their vehicles is pretty hit and miss (from my personal observations). A close family friend has a 2004 S430 that has never been taken in for anything other than routine maintenance. The AMG C36 had oil leaking into the coolant system and the air conditioning broke (which is over 1K to fix). The S500 had a nasty piston slap.
Honda (the Brand) are not as luxurious as many Mercedes cars, but Honda vehicles have a fairly good reputation for being reliable and cheap to own. My Acura TL was unbelievably reliable until someone plowed right into me. Unfortunately, Honda Accords are well known for having pretty crappy transmissions (at least until 2005), and the transmission in my 03 sucks.
Honda Vs. Mercedes is the worst analogy I have ever heard of in my life. As a pseudo car guy, I find that argument kind of offensive.
I will end this comment with a photo of an ‘inferior’ car.
Posted on Dec 29, 2011 | 9:26 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
“On The Verge, E02”, I also hoped that Gruber would be better than this. I should’ve known better. Have you ever listened to Gruber’s podcast? I felt like I was listening to a conversation beneath the grave, it was lifeless.
Posted on Dec 17, 2011 | 1:07 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I don’t think the class warfare aspect is about money. It’s about making a distinction between people that “see” and people that “don’t”, implicating people that “see” are superior to people that “don’t”.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 11:06 AM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
I think you, for the most part, hit the nail right on the head. But… I think Josh is just taking things too personally, as well as anyone else that has a problem with MG’s post. I mean, for real, it’s just a freakin phone review. If you don’t get it, don’t care. That is them and you are you!! People who love Apple products are called blind sheep all of the time. Do we go crying? No… We grew up (Most of us). We are used to it.
I for one have turned a lot of people from Android to iOS whether it’s phones or tablets. And I do it condescendingly. They think their phone is the Shiite Muslim and iPhone is crap… Have they tried the iPhone? No… Do they end up trying it and saying “You were right?” Most of the time. The people who had Androids first? They didn’t get it. Now they do!! Some are more stubborn because of my condescension, but they fall in line. Is Android a great alternative to iOS for some? Probably, but not the majority of the population.
I know this will drive everyone here insane, This is my purpose. But for real… Get over it. Man UP!!
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 4:13 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
It’s so not about class, it’s about taste and appreciation for good design. I’m most Android users have never heard of say Dieter Rams and nor do they care BUT that’s fine, just fine.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 5:51 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Your comment is the same horseshit that Topolsky was railing about in this post. Get past your ego. Dieter Rams and how Ives and Jobs flat out lifted their design choices from him does not make Apple or you a single bit better, and it most certainly doesn’t prove that you have an appreciation of design or an understanding of the finer things in life.
On my desk right now, I have an iPad 2, a Motorola Xoom, an Evo 4g, an LTE Galaxy Nexus, and an HP Elitebook. They all have their strengths and they all have their weaknesses. But to be honest, not one of them defines who I am as a person or what level of taste I have. Knowing who Dieter Rams is one thing, but feeling a sense of aggrandizement about that piece of knowledge is pure narcissism. Why don’t you go hang out at Starbucks and sip your soy lattes with the rest of your kind Captain Culture. They are perhaps the only ones shallow enough to grok your sophistication.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 9:25 AM EST reply Recommend (13) Flag actions
For starters I’d never even step in Starbucks…
It’s all about what makes good design and what the purpose of good design is. Josh said it his self in the podcast the other week “There’s not a lot of good taste out there”, guess what he’s right.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 11:51 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
But all iOS users have?
What a fucking joke. It’s about choice and people choosing different things. That’s it.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 1:28 PM EST reply Recommend (3) Flag actions
I will bet that most of the 250 million iOS users out there have no clue who Dieter Rams is either. Get over yourself.
Posted on Dec 22, 2011 | 3:08 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Cannot rec this post hard enough. Nail on the head.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:17 PM EST reply Recommend (4) Flag actions
nailed it. absolutely nailed it.
the tech community has needed someone to say this for a long, long time now.
I just hope everyone hears it.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:17 PM EST via mobile reply Recommend (4) Flag actions
Why does it even matter? This is not politics.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 4:39 PM EST reply Recommend (4) Flag actions
Well Said Josh!….. Its not that I don’t agree that iOS is more polished but My problem is with the smug elistism of gruber and MG. I read DF ever single day but you points are spot on.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:17 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
This is why I read The Verge, listen to their Vergecast, Mobile podcast, and read the forums here. It’s also why I DON’T read daringfireball, and things written by Siegler or any other Apple fanboy. Because, let’s face it, that is what they truly are. This was clearly demonstrated on On The Verge 002.
Very well done, Mr Topolsky
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:17 PM EST reply Recommend (14) Flag actions
What Gruber said on the vergecast 002 is correct though, you call people a “fanboy” yet where is the evidence that he has been wrong?
Compare the amount of nexus phones sold vs the amount of iphones sold. It would be great though if the nexus prime changes that.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:10 PM EST reply Recommend (3) Flag actions
Exactly. Where has Gruber been wrong?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 4:39 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
When he said Android Notifications are shit and then the minute Apple announced Notification Center, he said it was amazing…
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 5:20 PM EST reply Recommend (7) Flag actions
Did this actually happen?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 5:43 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
No, it didn’t happen.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 8:38 PM EST reply Recommend (4) Flag actions
Reality has a pro-Gruber bias
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 11:46 AM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
Link or it didn’t happen. Gruber’s post from yesterday:
http://daringfireball.net/linked/2011/12/14/galaxy-nexus
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 6:40 PM EST reply Recommend (4) Flag actions
Yeah, like that one time on March 18, 2009 when he said:
Oh wait…
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 8:03 PM EST reply Recommend (9) Flag actions
Damn, it turns out Gruber is an Android fanboy (or should I say fandroid?). How did the iPhone in his pocket not explode when he wrote that??
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 11:02 PM EST reply Recommend (3) Flag actions
Perhaps he had the mic covered, Apple didn’t hear him.
Posted on Dec 29, 2011 | 5:23 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I’m sorry, but anyone who has the audacity to claim they’re never wrong immediately loses all credibility with me. I don’t care how often they’re right, or how smart they are or think they are – that sort of arrogance and disconnect with reality puts them in the category of someone I’m not interested in listening to, or of giving any of my time to. it also reveals that they’re highly unlikely to listen to or thoughtfully consider differing opinions, because, well, they’re always right.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 2:11 AM EST reply Recommend (7) Flag actions
They’re not claiming they’re always right. They’re asking that if you think they’re wrong, point out the mistake so they can correct it, because if you won’t or can’t, then all you’re saying is “MG and Gruber suck”, and where does that get anyone?
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 10:40 AM EST reply Recommend (5) Flag actions
Except that a lot of what they claim to be “right” about, are elements of design, or user experience – things that are subjective and cannot not definitely be proven or dis-proven. Statements like, “You either get it, or you don’t”. With the implication that the people who do get “it”, are right, and the rest, well, they’re just fumbling around in their cloud of poor taste and design ignorance.
In the end, they’re often offering opinion. Not fact. Anyone can regurgitate facts. Gruber himself identifies as a columnist, not a blogger. MG essentially is too. How in the world can a columnist claim they are always right? By definition they are meant to editorialize and pontificate, not report facts. And the assertion that their opinions are right, and anyone else is simply too unrefined to realize that, only adds the arrogance and pomp of their stance.
And yes, this is just my opinion, which others are free to disagree with. It’s not right or wrong. Not black or white.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 10:56 AM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
But you (and Joshua) for that matter still haven’t pointed out anything in MGs review that’s actually wrong.
Unless you’re arguing that polish and attention to detail and good design aren’;t important?
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 11:01 AM EST reply Recommend (4) Flag actions
They write opinions. I’m not interested in disproving their opinions, that’s my whole point. The same way they should not be asserting their opinions as “right”. Their opinions are valid, and they often make good points. . Let’s get rid of who’s “right”.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 11:49 AM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
The Verge comment section reeks of fanboyism. It’s incredibly sad.
Joshua was pointing out that giving out opinions as facts, what Grubber is doing, is wrong and incorrect. You get Grubber saying it sucks, you get another writer/blogger saying it’s the best phone to date.
Who is right? Who is wrong? But the problem is that Grubber actually thinks he is the ultimate authority on things, and well, he has a very strong anti-Anything-non-apple bias, just read his blog.
Ultimately, Josh should just get over it. Grubber has some great points sometimes, but his pompous arrogant attitude makes it incredibly difficult for me to take him seriously anymore. I just avoid anything from him now.
Now we are back to the point that, yeah, iOS is more polished, looks better, but that doesn’t mean Android looks like shit or is completely unpolished. Again, opinions given out as facts, this is what Grubber does.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 1:35 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
When has Gruber given out opinions as fact? It’s his blog, his opinion.
Topolsky restricts his real opinions to the comments section of The Verge. Which is a real shame.
Posted on Dec 20, 2011 | 9:18 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
What was wrong about MG’s post is he is saying that ALL Android owners do not understand why iOS is great, which is complete B.S. I own a Galaxy S II and love it. It’s the best smartphone I have ever had. I also own an iPad and an iPad 2. I understand why iOS is great.
MG is basically saying that I own an Android device because I don’t “understand” what makes iOS great, and if I just spent time with iOS I would throw away my Android phone and get an iPhone. This, isn’t true, for me at least. But I am included in the group he mentioned because I am an Android owner.
Posted on Dec 18, 2011 | 11:16 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
no they don’t. You add that connotation, like josh, because of god know why.
I view it like music. You either get what a bands trying to get across, or you don’t see it. That has nothing to do with class. Or the quality of said music.
i find your post is made in incredibly hypocrisy considering it’s half about interpretation, and yet you don’t see the other side of how his statements can be taken yourself.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 11:01 AM EST reply Recommend (3) Flag actions
Perhaps I should be more clear. I completely get it. I get what Apple is trying to get across. But what I don’t do, is apply an absolute value to what they’re trying to get across. Some people like it, yes. Others don’t. But it’s not the case that one can assert that what they’re getting across is right, or better. There is no right or wrong. It’s only a preference.
Now, if Siegler & Gruber claim that they are not assigning a value of truth to their opinion, I think they should review their writing style. Because that’s the impression I get from reading them.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 11:44 AM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Again, that’s how you took what (MG not Apple) said. There are other ways to look at it (such as my music analogy, which while imperfect, shows that you can take that without getting offended)
Taking your interpretation about what you thought he said, and re-posting it as fact, is where i see some slight hypocrisy.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 12:05 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
I wouldn’t say I’m posting my interpretation as fact. It’s my impression of what he wrote. Just as you have yours. Perhaps we can leave it at that, and agree to disagree on our interpretation.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 2:01 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
fair enough!
Posted on Dec 17, 2011 | 10:33 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I have to agree! It seems like what Mr. Topolsky has culled from these quotes may be more reflective of his own prejudices of these two guys?
I am a fan of this site, the writing and even the podcast, but this seems like some strange personal mutual disrespect that goes way beyond Apple vs. Google and preferences. Seems to me they are using each others’ articles to say things about each other…nerd fight!
Posted on Dec 20, 2011 | 3:26 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I don’t think you understand… Get off of YOUR high horse and listen to what he said. I say the same thing all the time as well.
“I like to be right, so when I DO talk about something, I make sure that I am right.”Me… not Gruber. I believe that he is saying the same thing. And about Him not being open to other opinions? What is wrong with believing in anything and taking a stance. Everyone should do it. And he does do A LOT of reading and cross-reading and correcting his opinions on things. I hate defending the guy because I disagree with him a lot politically, but when he’s right about tech, he’s right about tech. He chooses his posts and words extremely carefully. You can see it in the way he talks. I have an appreciation for that….
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 4:21 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
People have never appreciated WP7 for what it is… where was this article then?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:18 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
I’m a HUGE WP7 fanboy, but come on. Even I can admit that WP7 is still behind Android and iOS in some very important categories. The UI and thought is brilliant, but the 3rd party devs and even the carriers (except AT&T) barely support it.
I want a truly awesome WP7 device to replace my droid charge, but until the Lumia 800 LTE comes out for verizon, we’ll just have to keep waiting.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:38 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Personally, I think the Samsung Focus S is a much nicer product than the Lumia 800. It looks more svelte to me. But that’s just me.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 2:44 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I was thinking the same thing.. Now all we need is someone who can defend WP7 the way Josh defends his galaxy nexus
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:43 PM EST via mobile reply Recommend Flag actions
You mean like Gruber?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:50 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
The tone from MG is entirely condescending and it’s just shitty journalism. This is coming from someone who mainly uses Apple products.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:18 PM EST reply Recommend (8) Flag actions
Yeah, the most controversial portion of Josh’s article is the part where he says he respects MG Siegler’s thoughts and opinions.
You’re on a sparsely-populated island on that one, Josh. MG Siegler is nothing but a troll masquerading as a journalist.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:58 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Yeah, but who was it again who said that Windows was like poison…? I don’t know why JT is so bent out of shape, because he too has been “that guy.”
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:21 PM EST reply Recommend (4) Flag actions
(1) Let’s please distinguish between an off-hand remark on a live-recorded podcast from a thought-out and edited article.
(2) If you want to defend MG’s position, that’s fine. [As a WP7 user, I’m completely sympathetic to the notion that polish and UX are more important than spec-sheet brawn.] However, you simply cannot defend the content of his article. MG’s sole claim was a generic charge that ICS lacks polish. That’s it. No details, no elaboration, nothing. In fact, the entire point of the article was that MG was unable to articulate why iOS was superior to ICS. Really? That’s funny, because there is an etire cabal of tech writers who’ve performed thoughtful analysis in the form of compare-and-contrast. Instead of taking the time and effort to write a substantive piece, MG simply mailed it in. It’s inexcusable.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 8:54 PM EST reply Recommend (11) Flag actions
I can’t believe I’m defending Topolski’s poison comment but:
That is a totally different thing.
It’s one thing to say, “ANDROID FEELS LIKE POISON”
To…
Whatever the hell this is.
Here’s some differences:
Josh always qualified it with, “to me”, he wasn’t making an argument of objective superiority. He wasn’t saying,. “If you spend time with MacOSX, you will realise it is JUST SO MUCH BETTER”. He was saying he doesn’t like Windows.
And then he didn’t make an astonishingly poor analogy which gave his “POISON” ran the following subtext: People only like Windows because they’re too poor and uneducated to have adequate experience with MacOSX, classical music, and Woody Allen films.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 3:49 AM EST reply Recommend (3) Flag actions
As Josh beautifully pointed out, this is not about whether you love or hate a certain product or service from any company whatsoever. It is about how you express this preference, and in this case what is happening is just plain insulting.
Even if his remark was completely serious, does Josh insult Windows users? No. He merely states his preference, which is completely fine.
Posted on Dec 20, 2011 | 7:39 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
It’s almost like he’s writing on his blog or something, on which he’s allowed to say whatever he wants.
Oh, wait.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 1:55 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Where did anyone say he didn’t have a right to say whatever he wants on his blog?
Does that mean no one else has a right to criticize him for what he says? Do you seriously think that?
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 4:39 AM EST reply Recommend (7) Flag actions
he’s saying it’s like going to apple insider and expecting to find good android reviews, or going to android central and looking up stuff on iphones.
It’s not like it’s not both done on both sides. Josh made a huge mistake in considering MG neutral, which i believe he’s trying to position himself as. Now, i think he’s much further from said neutral middle than i did at this point yesterday.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 11:04 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
You either see it or you don’t – in the same way that some people get annoyed by 128kbps audio and some people don’t care about the lower sound quality. I can’t see how that is condescending (in Gruber’s case anyway – Siegler is a different story), its a matter of personal preference. Calm down dear.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:18 PM EST reply Recommend (12) Flag actions
lol, comparing audio sampling to iOS vs Android? Simply LOL.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:27 PM EST reply Recommend (5) Flag actions
I can see the comparison. He’s trying to say that certain things are important to different people. I think Josh is trying to make that point as well… some people value certain aspects of iOS and couldn’t care less about having a massive screen or the ability to sideload apps. For other people, those things are very important and as a result, iOS is not a valid option for them. I believe Josh is taking offense to the fact that MG is unable to see that people can value things differently than someone else.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:51 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
Josh’s whole point was against anyone who sees an entire platform as better while dismissing anything positive and trying to put down the opposing argument.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:09 PM EST reply Recommend (4) Flag actions
It’s all a preference thing. And I think everyone is still waiting for that one android phone review that will not contain a negative but.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:13 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I’m not.
If a review doesn’t have a “but”, the author didn’t put the device through its paces, is trying to sell me something, or is not giving the device a fair review.
Every device has a “but”. You can either read it in the review or find out about it after shelling out $300. I prefer the review.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:46 PM EST reply Recommend (4) Flag actions
^Agreed^
Posted on Jan 12, 2012 | 5:20 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
he’s right. That’s why there’s no low latency audio apps for android. That’s why in my iCam setup, to get android clients to even view the streams i need to reduce audio quality.
it’s not conjecture, or making fun of something (as you are of his comment) it’s true.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 8:13 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
It’s actually a great comparison. Care to actually comment on why it isnt? Or just want to LOL?
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 1:30 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
its true there are difference between 128kbps vs 320kbps mp3, and people who doesn’t care simply won’t hear it, or don’t mind hearing at least.
However, comparing Android vs iOS is not 128kbps vs 320kbps mp3, more like FLAC vs ALAC. Both are lossless and equally as good, and it is up to user’s preferences to determine which is better. To disagree with that, you would have to be a fanboy.
To say that “you either see it or you don’t” assumes that iOS is simply superior, if anyone argues otherwise, he’s not seeing it, hence not having the same fine taste that iOS lover has, or in other words, naysayers simply have an “inferior taste”, and that is in my opinion, insulting and a wrong statement to make, which I think is what Josh is getting at.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 10:46 AM EST reply Recommend (3) Flag actions
Use VBR, for most pop music out there you WON’T notice any difference.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 1:38 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
ITA and thanks for responding to this review. That passage quoted above was about as elitist and condescending as it gets (and I’m an iPhone owner fwiw). Well said.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:18 PM EST reply Recommend (3) Flag actions
The fact that at the start of his article MG clearly states “You have to hand it to Google. They know that I prefer Apple products and have been generally critical of many Google moves in the past couple of years. And yet, they’re unafraid to give me their newest products to test out. To be honest, I’m not sure Apple would do the same. But I think this is a smart move on Google’s part. On one hand, they may get a negative review but they know that many will discount the negativity coming from me. On the flip side, if it’s positive: gravy train time.” If that’s not cocky/bashing enough I really don’t know what is.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:18 PM EST reply Recommend (16) Flag actions
Sounds like something Jonathan Geller would say.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:27 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
I know. I felt a ripple at that as well.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:02 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Totally. Does this guy really think he has that much influence?
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 4:42 AM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
I used to be a brand fanboy, then I took an arrow in the knee
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:19 PM EST reply Recommend (23) Flag actions
Summary: you don’t see it.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:19 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Well said. I’m sure they’ll say its all some big misunderstanding. Fuck them.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:19 PM EST via mobile reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
I have an iPhone 4 on AT&T and just got my Galaxy Nexus on VZW. If there’s one way to prove you’re not biased, even when you can get any review unit you want, is to actually pay for competing products.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:20 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Totally agree.I have a Samsung Focus and a Nexus S, almost identical hardware but very different software. It really clarifies the comparative pros and cons of each platform if you get to choose which one to carry each day!
BTW, even though the Focus is so much nicer in some ways because of WP7, I almost always choose the Nexus S; it just does more.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 5:46 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Is your Samsung Focus updated to Mango?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 6:48 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Yes, in fact I updated to Mango weeks early with the developer hack. Mango is a big improvement, but it’s not enough to compensate for the serious holes in the app catalog. I’m hoping that will change over the next year!
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 7:46 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Bravo Josh!
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:20 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
Surely by reacting this way you are fuelling the fire..
You seem to be suggesting that people make a logical approach when choosing a smartphone, (or anything for that matter) they don’t.
Sometimes you gotta reject the Kolinar and follow your heart.
How do you feel, josh?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:21 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Tell my mother, “I feel fine.”
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:47 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Josh is spot on here.
I have an Android phone, and I have an iPad. I like them both, but cannot say that one is empirically better than the other. There are a number of facets of iOS that I find maddening. (Why is it that my Gmail account never updates until I open the app?)
Android has it’s issues, but so does iOS. To try to write off an entire platform as a not just inferior, but having a lower class of users is simply insulting.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:21 PM EST reply Recommend (6) Flag actions
What facet of iOS is maddening? Wouldn’t your gmail update problem be a gmail problem? Other apps on iOS update without opening right? I think this is more Google than Apple. I use Android so can’t test to compare, but it doesn’t sound like an iOS issue.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 3:46 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:21 PM EST reply Recommend (33) Flag actions
You sir, win. +1
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 9:16 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
As an iPhone user of two years who switched to, and remains on, Android, I felt insulted by Siegler’s article. However, I expected nothing less from him. I don’t read or follow Siegler or Gruber because of their bias.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:22 PM EST reply Recommend (10) Flag actions
Even Jobs would have never put things the way these guys go on! And he freakin invented the iPhone!
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:22 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Um, I take it you haven’t read the Steve Jobs biography?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:23 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Um. I did. Twice. And before you go dissecting the technicalities of my post, NO i wasn’t suggesting Steve Jobs invented the iPhone. It’s a figure of speech.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:29 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I wasn’t going to dissect the technicalities of your post; I just thought it was pretty obvious Steve Jobs has a textbook case of black or white thinking. :P
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:31 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
the real question is, why did you read it twice?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:46 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
Does that really matter? How does that add value or meaning to this situation, at all? All it can do is encourage ad-hominem attacks.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:48 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
I’M CRYING PHOENIX TEARS OF JOY AND UNDERSTANDING AND LOVE FOR JOSHUA TOPOLSKY
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:23 PM EST reply Recommend (7) Flag actions
When you break it down what it really was was a poor analogy on MG’s part. From reading his blog/Twitter for a few years now I didn’t take it as him being condescending, but I can see how the average person/someone who isn’t familiar with him or his writing could.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:24 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
oh, forgive us your highness ! ,,, apparently we don’t belong to the same class of you and your MG !! ,,,
Joshua was spot on !
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:34 PM EST reply Recommend (3) Flag actions
I’m confused that you could think Josh was spot on, then engage in the out-of-hand dismissal and judging that he advocated against. In that post you thought was spot on.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:49 PM EST reply Recommend (3) Flag actions
mine was a response !!!! ,, not an outrages offense ,,, THIS is exactly what i still believe Joshua was spot on .
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:57 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
I’m confused as to how it being a response precludes it from being an outrageous offense?
If you’re sarcastically calling someone “your highness”, it’s generally a good sign that what you’re doing is offensive.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:58 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
did you read this !!! " but I can see how the average person/someone who isn’t familiar with him or his writing could" … An average person,, really ??? If replied sarcastically then that was because i was trying to be as polite as possible .. that should get you confusion-free !! If it didn’t then, , , tough !
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 4:03 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
I’ve found that when someone engages in a rude or offensive behaviour, being rude or offensive back doesn’t actually make them stop.
It just makes us both rude and offensive.
If you need sarcasm to ensure your post can be interpreted as polite, you may wish to step away from the keyboard for a little while, and approach the situation with a more level head.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 4:05 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
oh,, rude ?? … that’s what you got from my post? … man !
btw, better save your advice for the guy who started it,,
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 4:08 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
You should you wanna go down the road of “but he started it”? Can’t we all be adults about this?
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 3:32 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I am … read again, and this time maybe try to be so wise
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 12:27 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
iPhone user here, but… you are the man, Josh.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:24 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
I agree with most of this, especially the bits about “Well Android users just don’t get it” or any sort of other claim that attempts to invalidate the opposition arguments before they’re even made.
However, with reference to the Mercedes vs. Honda comparison, he is entirely correct (at least for the cars). If you go drive a C Class and then go drive an Accord. If you don’t think the former performs vastly better than the latter, then you honestly have no business commenting on car performance. Whether or not that comparison is relevant to the topic at hand is another story, but it’s at least a valid comparison for the point he was trying to make.
The rest I pretty much agree with you on. Even though I somewhat agree with what they said, there’s no reason to make it that black & white and condescending. Personally, I’ve never seen an Android device that performs QUITE as smoothly as iOS (although WP7, despite its faults, seems to get it right) but that’s not to say that there couldn’t be one.
However, I don’t see any reason to get THAT defensive over it. It seems a little hypocritical to call them childish in an article where you publicly call them out because you don’t like their opinion about a cell phone. Just saying, I guess.
Personally, I don’t see the Mercedes vs. Honda thing as class warfare, especially considering the Galaxy Nexus costs MORE than the iPhone. If he were really insinuating that higher cost = higher performance, than he would be arguing that the Nexus is a superior phone, no?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:25 PM EST reply Recommend (4) Flag actions
That was meant to say “Go drive a C-Class and then go drive an Accord.”
Brain is off today.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:26 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
They didn’t say “try an iPhone and you’ll get it,” they said, “you just won’t get it, and you won’t even try because you’re not good enough to understand.” They’re passing judgement on the audience.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:27 PM EST reply Recommend (3) Flag actions
The thing is, people don’t get what they are saying and this sounds like a knee jerk reaction. Stop defending him just because you like Josh and attack two others.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:31 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Seriously man, sleep it off.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:31 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
look at your post history. Why are you so incessant on turning this into engadget comment forums?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 8:17 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
I understand that argument, but I really don’t feel like that’s what was being said.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 4:09 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
where ??? please tell me where they said that… josh said it, in his total misinterpretation of Siegler. all they said was anybody would have to spend some time with ios to understand how that user experience can be better than anything else. josh just twisted it all wrong and took offense based on nothing.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 5:54 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
I think they are saying the whole “iOS is a luxury vehicle and Android is a mid-level sedan” thing was completely ridiculous and very antiquated.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:31 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
You’re telling me to sleep it off?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:35 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
MG was not commenting on the whole platform… android has a lot of advantages over ios, but user experience on the iphone is just so much better it’s like user experience of mercedes vs honda… not it’s price, nor prestige, nor horsepower, just user experience and attention to detail.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 5:57 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
The 32GB Galaxy Nexus does not cost more than the 32GB iPhone 4S.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:31 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
The base model of the Nexus costs more than the base model of the current iPhone. You knew what I meant.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 4:10 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Yes, but that Mercedes comparison reeks of class warfare when you say that it’s simply a superior car because it’s a Mercedes. It’s about brand acting as a status symbol, not “cost” as you mention with the Nexus.
People who like Mercedes often want to drive it off the lot and never think about it again. They enjoy the luxuries in it and like that it “just works.” They don’t put decals on the car. They don’t personalize it. It’s an expensive thing that acts as a status symbol.
But that doesn’t mean it’s the best. It might have a more optimized performance, but it also has limitations. And there are people out there who like to customize their cars. Tinker with em. Add things. Replace parts. And that’s who Android is, really. People who want to put bumper stickers on their cars. People who want to add cold-air intake. People who put hydraulics on that “Honda”.
Do those changes make the “Honda” run better? Sometimes, yeah. Sometimes, no. But at the end of the day, that person loves their car, because it’s a reflection of who they are. People buy Android phones for that same reason. People like to buy iPhones because it’s more of a status symbol as opposed to a reflection of their personality. Of course, there are exceptions to be made in both camps, but generally speaking, everyone I know with and Android device loves it because it enables them to make it their own.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:32 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Except a mercedes is an awful example because it has a terrible repair record, expensive to fix, and is severely overpriced.
Well, on 2nd though, maybe it’s not a bad example. lol
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:45 PM EST reply Recommend (5) Flag actions
It’s still a better drive and that’s assuming your statements are correct.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:17 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
It would be smarter to compare a BMW to a Mercedes, not a Honda.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:47 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Agreed, it would’ve gotten rid of this price class issue people seem to have with it.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 4:02 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
You’re being classist about the iPhone. Not everyone bought the iPhone as a status symbol, especially not my broke ass.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:51 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
At it’s inception it was clearly a class symbol. Not so much anymore, but still that thought process prevails.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:10 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
How is that possible when an iPhone costs the same or less than other smartphones?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 4:31 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
It doesn’t, really. Only very recently did the cheapest iPhone come down to $650 off contract, and that’s not nearly as cheap as some “flagship” Androids.
Also, until the iPhone became available on Sprint (which is the MOST expensive of the major carriers in terms of minimum monthly cost) the subsidized iPhone could only be purchased from Verizon and AT&T, both known to charge INSANELY high deposits to folks with weak credit. I’m talking $500, even $750 deposits! Compare this to T-Mobile, where almost anybody can walk in and get approved for 5 lines without any hassle.
Finally, iPhones, like all remotely desirable Apple products, NEVER go on sale… at least not until they’ve already been replaced the next year’s model. The Galaxy Nexus, on the other hand, is ALREADY on sale for $150 on contract at some outlets.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 6:07 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
I’m confused. You seemed to be against the whole car analogy and then just proved why it’s actually relevant.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 4:08 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
" People like to buy iPhones because it’s more of a status symbol as opposed to a reflection of their personality" – isn’t this a massive generalisation?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 5:20 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Yep, but who cares, right?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 5:57 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
It is not class warfare when someone says that Mercedes is a better car than Honda. All that is is comparing one product to another. Comparing products is not class warfare at all.
Class warfare is saying that you’re superior because you drive a Mercedes Benz. It still doesn’t change the fact that a Mercedes Benz is better than Honda or offers a much better driving experience.
So when you put that in respect to this article, in many respects the user experience of iOS / iPhone is better than Android but that doesn’t mean that people who use iPhones should think they’re superior human beings than those who don’t. Get the difference?
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 2:54 AM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
I think this is were most people are “missing” the class warfare point. Its not that the Iphone cost more or less then the Nexus thats not the point. Its that he is saying that there is a type of person that buys a Mercedes and a type of person that buys an Accord. That as an owner of a Mercedes I can see how my car is superior and also see how your Accord is flawed, and as an Accord owner you do not know better so you are happy with what you have.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 3:07 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
It’s the unfortunate lesson of Steve Jobs. It’s okay to be an asshole as long as you have impeccable taste. Gruber, Siegler, Arment, et. al. believe they have taste and that those who don’t agree with their assessment of Android do not have taste.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:26 PM EST reply Recommend (14) Flag actions
Spot on. I think the whole Apple mentality of superiority from Steve Jobs literally permeated their entire fan base.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:32 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
Then “fan base” must be a very small percentage of people who simply buy and enjoy their products.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:57 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
What mentality? Some of you people have some serious delusions about the technology other people use and why they use it. This is classic projection.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 4:59 PM EST reply Recommend (3) Flag actions
Josh, I have a lot of respect for your opinions, and I agree with you that MG and Gruber were overly closed-minded and condescending in their posts.
That being said, as a long-time iPhone user who keeps trying every new Android device that comes out and continues to be disappointed, there is a lot of blatant Galaxy Nexus-worshipping going on right now, both here on the Verge (my all-time favorite site) and on the Internet as a whole. The device has some serious flaws (apps and camera, to name a couple), but seemingly everyone is so blindly in love with the thing, no one is talking about them (your review itself was great, Josh).
Bottom line – if this sort of fervor was happening in the tech community over an Apple product, the accusations of fan-boism would be loud enough to drown out the boisterous Apple fans in line at Grand Central. But, because it’s a Google product, it’s okay.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:26 PM EST via mobile reply Recommend (12) Flag actions
There are plenty of Apple lovers laughing at Android lovers who are gushing over the GN. That kind of stuff never finds its way to the mainstream. He didn’t attack them for preferring one phone over another, he attacked them for their pompous attitude, which was fair criticism.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:32 PM EST reply Recommend (4) Flag actions
There’s an important distinction that needs to be made here: Josh did not attack Gruber and Siegler; he criticized what they said, and how they said it. It’s that distinction that makes his criticism of their statements more credible than their statements. He does not portray them as below him, and thereby attempt to discredit them and anything they have to say, he simply systematically tears apart the offending statements. Contrast his methods with theirs, and it’s difficult not to agree with Josh.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 1:32 AM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
It DOES happen over every apple product. I remember hearing Josh have an orgasm when he played with the iPad 2 (over on Engadget days). Every Apple launch is preceded by a huge wave of fan fervor over any minute improvement.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:33 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
You mean a huge wave of general fervor? God forbid people like it because it’s a good product, not because they’re riding a hype train.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:35 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
No, fan fervor. Apple people clap, cry, and almost pass out when a new phone is released. Maybe you should watch the press conferences once in a while.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:46 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
I do. Have not seen anyone cry or pass out. Hyperbole doesn’t really help your argument.
And it is general fervor. News stations from Guardian UK to CNN to Fox cover new Apple products, your best friends on Facebook talk about it, pretty much everyone. You can’t call them all fans. Perhaps it’s just news.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:58 PM EST reply Recommend (3) Flag actions
Plenty of applause, laughing, and general joy at Google press conferences as well- haven’t you watched any of the recent ones?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:59 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I’m assuming you mean keynote, and by using such language as you did, you actually made yourself sound like just as much of a fanboy as those you claim to hate. Comment fail.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 7:16 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
And after each announcement everyone else scrambles to catch up. Wish apple would start doing that with the notifications.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:19 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Ugh, I am so sick of these arguments. Why can we all agree that its just awesome to not have a motorola razor anymore. . . and t9 texting. . .
Why will i never leave iOS? Because i have spent an ASSLOAD on apps the past 4 years. But its better for all of us if there is competition. Look at the Galaxy Nexus vs the G1. Much prettier for ripping off the iPhone. look at iOS5 compared to iOS3. Much better for having ripped off android.
Here is to stealing and making my shit consistently more awesome. . .
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:27 PM EST reply Recommend (7) Flag actions
I kinda want the new Razr. In white. Judge me.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:33 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
While I have to add that the iPhone ripped off Android as well, (just look at the notification center) I totally agree. AAs long as Google and Apple are at each others throats, we, as consumers, win.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:53 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
“Here is to stealing and making my shit consistently more awesome.”
I’ll drink to that. Make that a double Crown on the rocks.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 2:56 AM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
design and elegance, especially now, are NOT exclusive to the elite. This is wrong. We can’t grade android on a curve. It has to stand on it’s own merits. “Class warfare” really? these are all elite devices…
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:29 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
Well said, good perspective.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 11:51 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Completely agree, Josh. ICS is a major overhaul, which is why there are so many Apple fanboys out today trying to diminish that fact. Haters gonna hate (wish I had a cool gif to put here).
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:29 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
A day doesn’t go by where BGR doesn’t hate on it in some form or fashion.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:48 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
So now we all wait until the ota update for our android phone drops and developers update their apps. But it’s good to have ICS out there at least.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:20 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
You sir, are my new hero. It is that kind of smug arrogance that makes those Samsung ads hit so close to home.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:29 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
Josh, its a freakin’ analogy. Get over yourself and stop overanalyzing it. It’s the same as someone who tells you that StarBucks is shit coffee, because the little hole in the wall around the corner makes better coffee because less people know about it. Most Android folks who hate on iOS and the iPhone only do so because they are want to buck the trend. It’s the same people who won’t listen to pop music, get coffee at starbucks, or drink Lite Beer. Cause its what normal people do.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:29 PM EST reply Recommend (5) Flag actions
He kind of, umm, overanalyzes for a living.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:33 PM EST reply Recommend (6) Flag actions
No, Starbucks makes shitty coffee because it’s mass produced donkey piss. Starbucks is the McDonalds of coffee. A lot of those “hole in the walls” serve shitty coffee too. But some of them… the ones everyone raves about… they’re good for a reason.
People who don’t “do what normal people do” don’t do those things because it’s the norm, or because it’s not cool… it’s because that stuff is crap due to their mass production. There’s no care put into creating Bud Light, Starbucks coffee, etc. Pop music is formulated and soulless; it lacks emotion and raw artistic expression. That’s the real reason.
Now, do you see how an analogy can reveal a lot about the person delivering it?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:36 PM EST reply Recommend (4) Flag actions
Total sidetrack, but people who say this about Starbucks are almost always too young to remember life before Starbucks. I agree they aren’t the best coffee you can get, but they were responsible for an absolute revolution in how Americans view coffee. You think hip and awesome coffee joints like Intelligentsia, or your awesome local hole in the wall, would even exist if Starbucks hadn’t come along fifteen or so years ago? Maybe in a few markets, but most of the rest of us were drinking 12 hour old dirty water from the 7-11 or some truck stop. Dude, in the 80’s, Dunkin’ Donuts was thought of as the best you could get by a lot of people.
So yeah, Starbucks isn’t great, but you can thank that donkey piss for your good coffee. Btw, in case you haven’t been paying attention…Starbucks isn’t the McDonald’s of coffee. McDonald’s is the McDonald’s of coffee.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 5:00 AM EST reply Recommend (3) Flag actions
I plussed both of you because you’re both right. Starbucks IS crap, but what we had before was even worse.
BRAG: Fortunately, I live in Portland now where we have lots of such holes-in-the-wall serving local brands (Stumptown Hair Bender is like liquid crack!) Nonetheless, we still have a Starbucks on every other corner and they seem quite popular.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 1:30 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Words encourage thoughts. Thoughts encourage actions. Actions change our lives.
Analogies can be very, very dangerous. If I said you were like a dog, you’d probably take issue. Why? It’s a freakin’ analogy.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:53 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
>2011
>calling Android users hipsters
ISHYGDDT
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 1:59 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Right on!
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:30 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Totally agree, Josh. Well put.
Gruber, you’re not just wrong, but so wrong that you clearly have no idea how wrong you are. You have a crap load of people here telling you that. Just because there are a lot of people at the apple store makes you right?
I won’t even bother to address MG because frankly I have no respect for him.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:31 PM EST reply Recommend (3) Flag actions
Do you think that a bunch of people agreeing in Verge comments necessarily makes you or anyone else right?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:32 PM EST reply Recommend (3) Flag actions
Wow, someone woke up on the wrong side of his iPhone this morning…
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:45 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
I didn’t say they were right or wrong, but it’s bad logic to say “our group of people-in-agreement has more clout than YOUR group of people-in-agreement”
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:56 PM EST reply Recommend (6) Flag actions
I agree. When we allow ourselves to be persuaded by the numbers or types of people on any given side of an argument, facts fly out the window, and we devolve into tribes of ape-people screaming at each other about who is wrong and stupid and ignorant, instead of honestly trying to determine what is right and true. When we allow this to happen, we’re all wrong, even if our side is right.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 1:58 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Gad_Get’s FTW!
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 2:59 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Yes, I think both of you are making my point. Gruber stated that he was right because he cited the number of people who go to apple stores. It is bad logic to use that as a base for determining who is right. THAT is where he is wrong.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 2:29 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Well there is a difference when the market seems to agree with one point versus an echo chamber affect on a board. You cannot compare the two. If something is that popular then you have to look at why.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 5:19 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Yet I think he’d appreciate it if you would come up with some factual evidence of that. (Everyone would I think)
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:22 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Josh, nice to know the word condescending is not the tone of The Verge that I have see. I like this place, because now I have to hang out here to find Tom.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:31 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I like my iPhone 4S… I also like my friends Nexus S.
Whatever man, it’s just a phone, everyone needs to calm down.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:31 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
I think the reaction is due to the tiring way this gets hammered by Apple folks. Constant, endless, overused analogies of “high end vs low end” as if that’s even the case at all. It is more so a “I’m just better than you and you don’t understand why” attitude that has permeated a lot of Apple users and it all started with Jobs.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:50 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
“Apple folks”.
I think you’ll see the same unfortunate attitude from people trying to defend any well known tech product.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:02 PM EST reply Recommend (3) Flag actions
I own an iPad 2 as well as my Android phone, and I understand why people like both. I don’t like when people have to act sanctimoniously better than others simply because they picked a certain platform, and for years Apple has used the “high end” argument over Android. That argument simply doesn’t hold water anymore.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:12 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I think at the end of the day it was piss poor analogy to compare a $20k car and a $60k car which does imply there is some kind of “class” of people that are better than another. Otherwise its a bunch of people putting up their opinions that only us tech heads read and care about.
Whats really great is the how this message board is reciprocating everything Josh pointed out as being bad for the community. Stay classy internet.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:31 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
Yeah, this thread kind of sucks. Ah well.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:39 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
dude, they did no such thing… they compared user experience of one car to another car… ignore the price prestige and horsepower, he talked about how the finish on the smallest details makes for a better user experience and that ios has that and android doesn’t… and that’s a fact… you can still choose android because of one of 15 other reason where android is better, he didn’t comment on that, he just compared the user experience
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 6:04 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Seriously, is that what you think facts are?
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 5:03 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
You are my hero.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:31 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
But an iPhone really is a very expensive machine, a luxury item that only hi-profile classes have access to.
You can see it at the cellphone store where the clerk offers you a phone, an iPhone or a cheap iPhone (android)… there I said it.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:32 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
the iphone on contract costs just as much as the average high end android phone.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:33 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Well… I don’t think there are as many high end android phones as iPhones.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:37 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Verizon releases a new one every 10 days…?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:39 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I meant consumer who uses them, they may be the 10% of all android users, right?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:45 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Ah, so it’s only a small amount now? Backpedal faster.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:51 PM EST reply Recommend (3) Flag actions
That doesn’t make any sense at all.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:51 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
I was just saying to someone recently the reason that I love smart phone is because everyone from almost all walks of life can buy the very best phone. There is no classism in smart phones because everyone is equal.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:32 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
That’s not true at all… There are still expensive data plans and pricey contracts. Sure you can get a free smart phone when you sign a new contract, but not everyone can afford all the hidden costs that go with it.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:33 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Iam talking about folks who ARE buying smartphones. The difference between the best smartphone and the worst is 300 bucks. If you do indeed choose to buy a smartphone you can probably get the best. 300 bucks every 20 months isn’t much. There shouldn’t be classism within smartphones. I’m just says ng the best isn’t like 10k. The Honda and Mercedes analogy is just wrong.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:51 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Here’s an analogy.
iPhone is The Verge. Android is Engadget.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:32 PM EST reply Recommend (7) Flag actions
Really poor analogy.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:52 PM EST reply Recommend (3) Flag actions
I have a huge problem with you saying that; considering i view your commenting continually as trying to turn this into engadget.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 8:23 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
In terms of commentators, yes.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 7:17 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Honestly, I think this all comes down to a big honking case of confirmation bias. People who already like Android, for whatever reason, will find evidence to make Android better and more evidence to why iOS sucks. And vice versa. And these lines will not be crossed, and the only reversal of opinion will ever come from personal usage of products. I’ve given up on most forms of the Android/iOS debate, it’s utterly pointless.
The fact that you don’t like someone’s tone is understandable, but I actually think the majority of the articles you pointed out were not as off-target as this response sounded. And I do think the car example is a fine one, as there is a lot of “personal taste” that massively biases peoples’ opinions.
I think the reality check we can all agree on goes something like this:
iOS is by far easier to learn and use, has a more robust app and content platform, but is one-size-fits-all.
Android is by far a more powerful platform, though implementations vary significantly from device to device, and there is less overall polish in the experience.
My advice to all: Pick the one you like, and use it. Then realize it’s just a phone, and go outside and enjoy some nature. It’s refreshing.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:33 PM EST reply Recommend (3) Flag actions
I agree, but I think Josh’s point was exactly what you said — use what you like and quit being a condescending POS about it.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:53 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Stop getting so upset about it. Use what you want to use and leave it at that? Guess trolling is more fun, right?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:23 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
I agree. Its a phone! Use it and be happy! Or get something that makes you happy and leave me to mine.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 11:52 PM EST via mobile reply Recommend Flag actions
I tried the Galaxy Nexus for a while, and I still prefer the iPhone 4S over it.
What frustrates me about the above “review” is that it wasn’t a clear discussion about why. For me, iOS still has smoother scrolling (in most apps/games and web browsing), better font rendering, more apps are available on iOS, cross platform apps generally perform better on iOS, and I hate pentile displays (though that doesn’t bother everyone). For the display, since they both have the same number of sub pixels, the iPhone is clearer and doesn’t have the same filter effect for me (better sub pixels per inch).
But all of these are just opinions, and I’m glad to see Android improve as much as it has. The Galaxy Nexus is a huge, positive step for Android.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:33 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
iOS smooth scrolling is becoming a bit of an annoying point of argument. Yes, it’s smooth, but so is my Thunderbolt from March. I was able to modify it and put whatever I wanted on there. My wife’s Bolt is stock (no root) and it works great without lagging. That argument is so tired and so overused despite the fact that Apple is still just a grid of icons with no moving parts.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:58 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Is it? Heh, I tried the Thunderbolt and i don’t think the scrolling is as smooth as the iPhone (3GS, 4, 4s). It’s a valid argument that shouldn’t annoy you – iOS simply does a better job of this than Android right now. And the grid of icons doesn’t really have anything to do with scrolling in the browser, does it? Yes you can modify the Thunderbolt more easily than the iPhone. No one said there weren’t advantages to either platform.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:15 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
Check google+ for a post made by some intern. He clearly explains why android can never be as “smooth” as ios.
If you’re going to make statements at least make correct ones.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:25 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Speaking of making correct statements, Android’s engineers’ statements on iOS graphics have been wrong. Be sure to read the comments to Dianne Hackborn’s followups to that post to get the real facts from the iOS jailbreak community.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:31 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Thanks for the info! Ignore my previous statement.
http://blog.crazybob.org/2011/12/truth-about-android-ios-ui-performance.html more or less outlines that is possible but will take time (and it’ll depend a lot more on the 3rd party developer). Still troubled by the UI running in the main thread though.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 4:04 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Hahaha, tell me you are a comedy character.
You make an excellent and insightful point and follow it up with, “That argument is so tired and so overused despite the fact that Apple is still just a grid of icons with no moving parts.”
Awesome work fella.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 5:59 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Man, where is the +1 (or recommend) button for posts?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:33 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
ugh, I feel stupid.
Just realized it’s on the left of the post (usually it’s either at the top or at the bottom, before the comments).
I assume those buttons are not very new and I’ve been blind for the last few weeks, right?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:54 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
For once, I agree with every single word you wrote. Well said and well played. In Gruber’s defense he has been WP7 credit which it deserves. But yeah, this article needed to happen from someone that people look to.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:34 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
How is ok for you to say you hate windows and it feels like poison to use it, but MG can’t do a review with his own opinion?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:35 PM EST via mobile reply Recommend (4) Flag actions
Well it IS poison to use.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:36 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
using Windows is like having an STD, really.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:55 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I was wondering what that chafing was.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:32 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Did you even read what he wrote?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:36 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I’m reminded of my favorite FSJ quote
“Nobody chooses Windows. People “Get” Windows with their crappy PC they bought at Best Buy… Kind of like how people “Get” herpes.."
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 5:04 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
That comment was far more “horseshit” than anything mg said in his review.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 5:30 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
While I somewhat agree with Josh here, it’s been my experience with most Android fans that they ARE confrontational at just about every opportunity. Just look at some of the responses here, which are mild compared to most Apple/Android-related comment threads. They don’t just point out mistakes — they personally go after people who happen to actually like Apple products. It’s not even about which device is “better” (and that’s such a subjective term as to be almost meaningless) but it’s about completely diminishing the people who happen to appreciate Apple stuff. I don’t like the analogies that MG used, and I do think that comes off as elitist, but damn if the amount of nerdrage hate that gets thrown at anyone who dares not crown Google the king of everything tech doesn’t elicit at least a little bit of that response.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:36 PM EST reply Recommend (4) Flag actions
Apple fanboys are pretty hardcore themselves.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:38 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
They can be, but in a different way. I think that’s the elitist bent that rubbed Josh the wrong way. But it’s not the same as the personal attacks that Android fans use. I mean seriously, the most common theme I get from Android fans is that Apple fans are STUPID — that they’re not smart enough to see the “superiority” of Android that that they’ve been brainwashed into thinking Apple products are good. Really? It’s not that they just prefer one system (complete with intangibles) over the other, it’s that they’re morons who just don’t know better? I personally may prefer one over the other, but FFS at least I’m not questioning the intelligence of people who’s opinions differ from mine.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:44 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
I have to bow out – these comments are moving faster than a slickdeals thread.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:37 PM EST reply Recommend (4) Flag actions
lol
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:42 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Well written, well argued. This is why The Verge is a serious Tech News site and why Daring Fireball is a blog.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:37 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Daring Fireball has never claimed to be anything but a blog. This argument isn’t even taking place in a news piece, this is an opinion forum.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:52 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
It’s not even a blog, it’s just Gruber quoting people out of context and zinging them with cheap one liners without ever making a complete argument. He has a website dedicated to hosting his own comments on other people’s work. He’s a heckler and nothing more.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:54 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
… you do realise that blogging was created as a way of commenting on things people found around the nascent internet, yes? Gruber’s blog is actually truest to the history of blogging.
Not that that makes Gruber any less of an ass (at times), but be careful about just dismissing somebody’s work out of hand.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:38 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
To get a sense of how facile Siegler’s analogy is consider this NY Times coverage in which car brand’s associations are explored in China. The Mercedes is viewed as being for geriatrics while the Buick is considered hip. Siegler is trying to imply that good taste is the domain only of the wealthy, and that is horseshit (great to see that is the title of a story, by the way).
What bothers me most, though, is both his and Gruber’s reliance on the supposed je ne sais quoi quality of iOS and the App Store to defend it as a platform. Their job, expressly so, is to explain what makes one platform better than another. If they can’t put their fingers on what that is exactly, perhaps its because of their having greater familiarity with one over the other, and perhaps they should keep their fingers off their keyboards until they can explain.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:38 PM EST reply Recommend (6) Flag actions
Flawless Victory
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:38 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
I pretty much agree with Josh’s points.
The part of Josh’s rebuttal that I didn’t 100% agree with is the Mercedes vs. Honda analogy. I don’t know that MG was necessarily trying to make a statement about the socio-economic status of an iPhone owner vs. an Android owner. I think he might have been talking about the difference in how the car “feels” and drives.* I can definitely understand how Josh could make that connection though. I just don’t think MG was going for the socio-economical angle. MG probably should have considered it in his post though.
As an iPad owner and an Android phone owner, I don’t know where MG gets the idea that “Android lovers are not going to spend enough time with iOS to fully appreciate the differences.” I spend plenty of time with the devices and I DO fully appreciate the differences. And Android, in my opinion, is the better because of those differences.
*I do not personally believe this, I’m just trying to put myself in Siegler’s shoes.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:40 PM EST reply Recommend (3) Flag actions
Gosh, I love Josh. I have to say that his view and mine are eerily similar. I was thinking the same thing when I read MG’s review. Josh’s point are most the reason I don’t follow MG on twitter anymore.
Though I do still enjoy Gruber’s posts and I am subscribed to his RSS it feels like his posts are the most extreme/biased that I read. And how Josh pointed out on On The Verge, thats his beat.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:42 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Thank you for a well-reasoned response.
As someone who uses iOS and Android, for a daily-use device, I could not use an iPhone. While it may look prettier or be more buttery smooth (both of which are completely subjective and/or dependant on how OCD one is), iOS is not nearly as elegant in some ways. How many steps to turn on/off Bluetooth on your iPhone? On my Android, it’s one. One touch on the home screen. The screen size on iPhones is also feeling dated and out of touch, which is purely subjective as well. Yet relevant.
While I’ve been entertaining the idea of switching from Android to an iPhone, it’s just not a compelling decision. Every device/OS/carrier has its pluses and minuses that all carry different weight with different people.
Now, MG, if you’ll excuse me, my Maybach is ready and I need to go. Not to worry, though. I’ll only chortle lightly at your Mercedes envy.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:42 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Nice ending!
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:43 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
The problem on both sides of the OS war is preconceived notions that are not grounded in experience. I’ve been an iPhone user for 4 years and I used to assume that all Android phones were crap because they weren’t iPhones. I see now how stupid I was because after actually using Android phones and appreciating what they offer that iOS doesn’t offer, I don’t drink the Apple kool aid anymore. I’m about to switch from a 4S to a Galaxy Nexus and couldn’t be happier with my decision. Neither OS is inherently better than the other, they are just different.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:43 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Joshua, I agree with your every word in this post, what would we do without you?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:44 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Joshua,
As a man who loves his Nexus S 4G & his iPod Touch with equal passion, I have to say to you, “Bravo Sir.” That was the most elegant, eloquent, & passionate defense I’ve ever read. John & MG really need to listen to themselves. Both guys just embarrass themselves with their flagrant fanboy-ism.
I use apps on both platforms. The function very similarly, look visually similar, & both accomplish the same tasks. It’s all a matter of perception. I could use either one. I just prefer something more open to the whim of the current Apple CEO. I want some consistency of what is or is not allowed. I want developers to have the freedom to innovate without be shackled by ridiculous rules.
Thank you Joshua. You’ve made a customer for life of your work.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:46 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Josh, spot on. Gruber and MG I’m afraid come out of this as shamefully smug and somewhat elitist. I am a ardent IOS admirer but sincerely hope that Windows and Google keep pressing Apple hard to improve and innovate – competition is key, I have no doubt that MANGO and ICS are really excellent and are now simply putting consumers in the excellent position of 3 great OSs not just one clear leader with some also rans.
My concern is that Gruber and MG are so up their own backsides their ears are covered and eyes are blind to the insults they have delivered to the common man.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:46 PM EST via mobile reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Is it alright, as an owner of an iPhone to say, I don’t think ICS is as polished as iOS is yet? It’s a huge improvement over Gingerbread and you are welcome to disagree, but maybe you don’t see the same things as I see, or prioritize the things I prioritize.
That’s my take, and i think that if Siegler and Gruber were overly inflammatory in their phrasing /analogies, but I don’t feel my view is far off from there’s just without the, I’m inherently better than you attitude.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:47 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
That’s exactly what he is trying to point out here though, the “I’m inherently better than you attitude”, and the fact that such an attitude is harmful to intelligent, reasoned discourse in the realm of technology as well as everywhere else.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:53 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Using MG’s logic, I would say “iOS lovers are not going to spend enough time with Ice Cream Sandwich to fully appreciate the differences.”
But I’m not MG, and I’d say that I respect your opinion and your choice of OS. I happen to have a different preference, and that is also okay. I’m glad that there is so much competition in the mobile technology industry. We’re better off for it.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:00 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
This post is horseshit, but I’m not knocking you either.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:48 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
If MG wants to put iOS vs Android into automotive analogy it should be Mercedes/BMW, going from Mercedes to Honda is an enormous jump to take.. iOS is not THAT much better than Android I don’t even think it’s better at all, He’d be more on base with a Mercedes/BMW owners analogy, each group loves their cars for their own reasons and many will never opt for the other. That is a much better comparison than what MG presented. Also throw in the fact that a Honda clearly costs a lot less than a Mercedes, where a comparably feature-rich Android phone costs the same as an iPhone. So it isn’t about exclusiveness and what you can afford, it is about what you prefer.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:50 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Agreed. Paid as much for my EVO as I did for my iPhone before that.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:55 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
The only problem with the Mercedes/BMW analogy is that it’s not an analogy for giving more or less attention to detail. Both are very detail oriented.
Topolsky was the one that made this about price. That wasn’t the point.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 3:47 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Amazing article and for the most part, pretty tame responses (I’m surprised at that). I am an iPhone 4/iPad2 user and my Galaxy Nexus is in the mail. I am an Android fanatic who has been using iOS cold turkey for two years running now. Regardless of how I feel about each platform, MG & Gruber represent the very worst in tech commentary in my opinion. I honestly know of no columnists on the Android side who are such dicks about iOS vs Android. I do quickly realize and accept that such arrogance is a two way street and that clowns like them exist of both sides of the table.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:52 PM EST reply Recommend (8) Flag actions
Exactly, clowns they are indeed and making money off their horseshit. How else would they even be ‘relevant’. What can they really do? Nothing.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:55 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Yet, I’m amazed at how hostile Android users get in blog posts that compare the two. They may not be popular bloggers but it’s pretty sad, being called a fanboy, iSheep, cult user, etc etc, when they’re the same thing – just over a different brand.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:57 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Totally condescending. As a former iPhone user (for several years) who switch to Android (HTC EVO) I can say I’ve spent time with both devices and I enjoy the Android interface as much, if not more, than I enjoyed my iPhone. AND I drive a Honda.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:55 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I agree with you Josh, but I’m kinda sick of how Android fans keep acting like the poor victim of OS bashing. Although MG and Gruber definitely have an arrogance to them, I’m amazed at how low Android users will go to try and insult people that use Apple products. I posted earlier on MG’s article, but if MG’s bias was on the other side of the fence, Android users would not have been upset about the bias. They’d applaud it.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:55 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I wouldn’t, for the record.
I read the Verge because I get (what I perceive to be) fair, balanced reporting. I think that’s what Josh’s response is all about: “They’re both super awesome. We don’t have to insult people just because they prefer one.”
I don’t read MG, Gruber, or Marco because I don’t want to have to wade through the Apple-centricity. I don’t read phandroid or Android Guys because I don’t want to have to wade through the Android-centricity.
If someone tells you you’re wrong for liking iOS more than Android, they’re just as much of an asshole as MG is for saying you’re wrong if you like Android more than iOS.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:28 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
And yet he doesn’t say that at all. He just prefers iOS himself, for reasons that some Android users find irrelevant.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 3:44 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Yeah. Speaking as a Android-only user (probably for the foreseeable future) I stuck around on The Verge because it’s a good source of information. I don’t want someone to tell me that the Gnex rocks the socks off every Apple product now and for a year in the future because that person would be lying. I do want to read reviews of good products that acknowledge they’re great and then go into detail about exactly what bits work well and which need work.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 4:01 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Let me start out by saying I could not live without all great tech pod-casts/blogs, I’d like to point out, however, that those without their own pod-casts/blogs, should not be referred to as civilians; very elitist, and condescending, as well. BTW, I’m not really pointing out anyone, it’s just something I’ve noticed too much this year on shows on TWIT.TV, Revision 3, The Verge/It’s my next….etc. – you get the point.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:55 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I knew there was a reason I continue to read your work.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:55 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I like how everyone took this idea as a bash at gruber, MG, and iOS. When really its just about a fundamental way of thinking and has nothing to do with android or iOS.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:55 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
Thank you.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:00 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
This is going to be good…

Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:56 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
Check out Mg Siegler’s response on twitter.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:56 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:04 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I really hope the response ends up being “If you don’t like what I write, don’t read it.”
And I really hope Josh replies “Same to you.”
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:24 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Well, now I’m convinced he’s not conceited.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 4:01 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
This is why I don’t like MG Siegler and really the writing in general on Techcrunch. Comparing top ends from two different ecosystems.
Car analogies aren’t great because you are putting yourself into an eco system with phone OSes. Perhaps comparing Diesel with Petrol, or even EVs with ICEs would be more apt… Anyway, Siegler’s use of those analogies really reek of arsehole.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:57 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Chill Josh, chill.
“More insultingly, it suggests that as a person who is not part of whatever elite group MG believes exists, you couldn’t even really understand why the Mercedes is superior.”
Just one example of many where you completely went the wrong way. You don’t have to be rich or even own a Mercedes to know that it is undoubtedly a freaking good car. I will never ever have nearly enough money to own a Mercedes, but I have driven some and they simply are better than all the cars I owned, not unlike a 2000$ MacBook Pro is better than a 300$ Acer netbook.
I don’t see “class warfare” at all. It seems to me you see “Mercedes” and think money, elite,…
I just see an excellent car that is really fun to drive and I intermediately understand why it is so expansive to build.
B.T.W. I drove a Porsche 911 for half an hour once….OMG
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:58 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
I’m somewhat conflicted by your post here Josh. It’s not that I disagree with you per se – or that I disagree with MG or Gruber either – it’s more like I think you’re both doing the same thing. MG said this:
And he’s right. Note that he says the majority of Android users – not all of them, and not you, Josh. But most of them. And he’s right. Most Android users have a MASSIVE chip on their shoulder and exist in a world where being better than Apple is a way of life. I know you know who I’m talking about, the Engadget comments were, and still are, filled with them, and there are even people here that are like that.
But you reacted as if he was talking about you specifically. You say it reeks of class warfare, I say it reeks of basic truth. Note that I’m not saying there aren’t idiotic Apple fanboys either – I’m saying there are idiot fanboys on both sides, and MG is simply pointing that out. If you ask most Android users about the refinement of iOS, most of them will say that’s bullshit and Android is just as good. It’s the truth.
Sure, it comes off as smug. But it’s true. Are we at a point where we have to demand that people speak the truth more carefully in order not to offend anybody?
Gruber says “You either see it or you don’t”, and that’s also true. It’s not about the levels of gray between all the different phones out there, this is about seeing what makes iOS more polished than Android. You either see that, or you don’t. I’ve heard hundreds of fandroids try to justify Android’s lack of polish, those are the people who don’t see it, who have never used an iPhone, or who choose not to see it.
Basically, I think you are overreacting here. There is nothing MG says that is so egregious that it bears being called horseshit – especially since what he’s saying is true.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:58 PM EST reply Recommend (3) Flag actions
I think you’re missing the basic point Josh is trying to make (at least as I’ve understood it).
This isn’t about Android. This isn’t about iPhone. This isn’t about polish or, really, even seeing things. This is about saying “My choices are inherently better than your choices, and if you don’t see that, there’s something wrong with you.”
We could be talking about favourite colours, here. It’s all about deciding your preferences are better than someone else’s preferences. It’s elitist, and it’s not okay. It’s insulting and offensive to anyone who reads what you write.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:21 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
This is where I think it could be a misunderstanding,
“You either see it or you don’t.”
What is “it”? I don’t think “it” is the iPhone’s superiority in all aspects. I think it’s the iPhone’s superiority when it comes to UI responsiveness and polish.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:37 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
That’s pretty unambiguously saying “Your preference gets the job done, but my experience is so much better.” I can’t think of a way to interpret that that doesn’t end with MG calling my preference stupid.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:41 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I think it’s possible to say “your preference gets the job done, but my experience is so much better” without necessarily implying the other side is stupid.
I’m ridiculously OCD about this stuff, so Android up to now has been completely unusable to me because rough edges pop out at me all over the place. (I have not used ICS yet, so I can’t give an opinion on it, and you should not interpret this post as an opinion of post-ICS Android. ICS looks like a great improvement and props to Matias and the crew for making a beautiful-looking OS, but whether it is smooth enough to meet my standards in real life usage, I can’t say.)
Call me an asshole if you want, but “you see it or you don’t” is true. I just don’t think it’s realistic for Apple bloggers to expect everyone to be as OCD as they are. Other people may prioritize other things to having a smoother ride, and those priorities will make Android a better choice for them.
I agree with what your post under this one says about rocks and bricks, but I also think there is some truth in “you see it or you don’t”.
(On a sidenote: people who think Gruber is the epitome of Apple fanboyism really should get out there and read more Apple blogs; there is much worse out there.)
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 5:19 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
I don’t think this is really even about “you see it or you don’t.” Let’s not get side-tracked.
Saying “your preference gets the job done, but my experience is so much better” does imply the other side is stupid. Why? Because the words “for me” aren’t tacked on the end. Even if I favour an experience that lets applications talk to each other over an experience that has a wonderful attention to detail, you’re still saying your experience is better than mine. It doesn’t take the complete subjectivity of something like this into account, at all.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 9:55 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Except what MG was actually saying wasn’t elitist like your examples. He never said his choices were better than anybody else’s. He said most Android users will think criticism involving polish is bullshit. And he’s right. And that’s where I think Josh sort of went a little overboard in his criticism.
Neither MG nor Gruber ever said anything remotely close to “my choices are better than yours, and you’re wrong.” Read what they said more objectively.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 5:38 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
I quoted him saying his choices were better than mine and I’m wrong. The post you just replied to was giving an example of where I saw this elitism. You didn’t acknowledge that example at all.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 9:57 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
In the post I responded to, you quoted JOSH, not MG or Gruber. Furthermore, neither MG nor Gruber said anything even remotely close to “my choices are better than yours”. Not even close, not even a little bit.
I’m going to ask you to quote back to me exactly what either one of them said that is the same thing as saying “my choices are better than yours”. I really don’t have any idea what you’re talking about. I’m pretty sure you were talking about the Mercedes thing, but that was MG saying that you can substantively point out how a Mercedes is a higher quality car than a Honda. Not that his choice is better than yours.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 2:05 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I’m not sure your Internet research qualifies you to speak on what ‘most’ Android fans would say.
Not a fan of the general tone/tactics of JG and MG (the former is way more bearable though) but it seems to be done to incite a reaction and seems to do it for some people.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 8:00 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
You’re not a fan of Gruber and MG? You don’t say. I couldn’t possibly have guessed that by how you seem to think what they’re saying is wrong. I notice you didn’t provide anything to contradict what I said, preferring to just insinuate that I’m wrong without providing any proof of such. Well done, I’ll be sure to go to you for any internet research I need done in the future.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 1:58 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Well, for one, if you’re saying most Android users have a MASSIVE chip on their shoulder then obviously you’ve just been picking fights with Engadget commenters, a small minority. People I know who own Androids couldn’t care less about this sort of stuff – it simply isn’t a priority to them. These people are a better representation of users than some enthusiasts.
Secondly, I stated I wasn’t a fan of the message and tone. I agree with their assessments of the iPhone and own the 4. There are ways of getting the message across without coming across as badly as they do. You say they’re smug but that’s okay because they’re correct. But I’m sure if any smug Android fan were to make some correct but negative comments about iOS, you’d be out – trollsmiting gear and all.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 8:34 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Engadget? LOL. No, I’m talking about people I know in real life. But it also applies to people on Engadget, and people here on the Verge, and people on blogs and tech sites all over the internet. People who CHOOSE to own an Android phone – because it has Android on it – are people who do it specifically to “not own an Apple device”. That’s not all Android users obviously, but it sure is a lot of them.
So you didn’t like the message and tone – how do you feel about Josh’s message and tone in this response to them? Or do you think “horseshit” is a well reasoned and appropriately subdued response? Josh obviously has a bone to pick with MG, this is not the first time he’s responded negatively to something MG has written. MG has a history of being frank in his writing, and for some reason that gets on Josh’s nerves.
Again, if you can point out any way in which MG was wrong, I’d love to hear it. If you agree that what is saying is not actually wrong, then your only complaint is how he said it, and that’s ridiculous. If you don’t like it, go cry yourself to sleep. It’s not his job to coddle you or Josh with his words, and maybe you should think about just getting over it. You can start by just not reading what MG has to say, that will pretty much solve all your problems.
Posted on Dec 19, 2011 | 11:43 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Why would I read what MG has to say if I don’t like it? Sounds pretty stupid to me. Of course, I could shorten my post to say that MG comes across as a dick, even if he’s correct therefore I don’t read what he writes. So in Josh saying he comes off as condescending, I agree (although Josh is somewhat hypocritical here).
You still haven’t explained how “most” Android fans, which you’ve now back-pedalled as “a lot of them” have a MASSIVE chip on their shoulder? Maybe in your circle, but let’s face facts – the vast majority of Android owners have no idea what OS the device runs, and probably just take what the store rep has to offer them. As we have seen, there is evidence to show that people are using Androids as modern feature phones.
It seems you’re essentially trying to say that all Android enthusiasts are Android enthusiasts then well done for stating the bleeding obvious. If the people you know in real life are that hung up over a smartphone then you have my sympathies.
Posted on Dec 20, 2011 | 6:10 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Related to this quote: " Most Android users have a MASSIVE chip on their shoulder"
I’ve always found it interesting to see the “most Android users sure hate Apple” meme. I use a Macbook Air as my main computer, I’m saving up for a 27" iMac, and would consider the iPad (2) the only tablet worth buying. That all said, my main phone is a Nexus S. I don’t hate Apple, nor do I think Android is God’s gift to earth. I simply prefer using Android over iOS. I won’t deny the iOS polish, performance, or ecosystem. I just find it to be incredibly sterile, and just a glorified app launcher. I see the polish, I see the care taken. I just don’t like it.
You seem to have this insane idea that most Android users on Earth are Apple haters. Most Android, iOS, Blackberry, Windows Phone, etc. users don’t give two fucks about what they, or other people, use. They use their damn phones to do all the things they do, and they go on with their life. The quicker you realize this, the sooner you’ll see how asinine these blanket statements are.
I wasted 7 minutes more than I should on this reply.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 11:27 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Uh huh. So you’re friends with most Android users, are you? You see what you did wrong there? You’re calling me out for making assumptions about most Android users while failing to provide evidence that contradicts me. I, on the other hand have had hundreds of conversations with hundreds of the fandroids in question, so my sample size is definitely larger than yours. But I at least agree with you on one point, your response was a waste of time.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 2:02 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Everything else aside…you know, Apple devotees used to point to substantive problems with Android. Nowadays you don’t hear much of that because few of those problems persist. Instead now you hear about “polish.”
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 5:19 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
This entire discussion is painful to read through. There’s a very fine point here that’s getting lost somewhere between the words “iPhone” and “Android”.
Let’s try and see this point with two new words: Rock and Brick.
MG basically just said his rock is the supersexyshit and if you don’t see it, there’s something wrong with you. You’re somehow inferior. Because nobody in their right mind would want a brick when they could have a rock.
Josh just said “Hey, it’s kind of a dick move to pass judgement on anyone who has a brick. I mean, it could just suit their lifestyle or preferences better. While rocks are awesome, bricks are pretty awesome too. They’re both super awesome for different reasons. Saying that one is clearly superior just means you’re kind of being an asshole.”
Now, can anyone see what’s wrong with this line of reasoning? This seems like a perfectly valid response.
By the way, I use a rock AND a brick because I’m a developer. Stick that in your biases and smoke it.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:58 PM EST reply Recommend (16) Flag actions
That sure is a great way to look at it!
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:01 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Thank you. I was just thinking that his entire thing has devolved into iPhone vs. Android (which these types of discussions ALWAYS do, for some reason) and that a whole bunch of people are missing the entire point of Josh’s post.
I have no idea why these things always have to turn into “MY consumer whore purchase habits are so much better than yours!”
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:05 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Meant to say “this entire thing”
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:06 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
My guess is that it has something to do with the natural, innate competitiveness of the human spirt, our constant desire to appear knowledgeable, our need for someone to validate our behaviours, and our need to believe in something larger than ourselves.
My favourite quote of all time came from an Apple employee who had to justify why he was presenting on Android at Google I/O: “I just want people to be as passionate about their technology as I am about mine.” I’ve tried to live by these words.
I use what makes me happy. I hope you use what makes you happy. Our phone is becoming an intimate part of our lives, Trying to tell someone what choice to make or that their choice is somehow wrong is akin to judging their choice of significant other. It’s just not okay.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:10 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
THIS sums it up perfectly!
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 6:51 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
My first question is Are these apt comparisons? The qualitative value is all in the minds of the beholder, cause I driven a Mercedes C class vehicle and it sure isn’t a special or wondrous experience compared to driving say a high end Honda or Toyota. ( or an E-Class Mercedes) Walt Mossberg says don’t pay attention to the interior specs of the Android product when it clearly exceeds those of the thing he loves- the Apple alternative. Why does a technology journalist need to compare anything to another product? It has it’s own experience, ease or lack of usability, etc. It seems that Apple fanboys are clearly worried that the bad old days are coming back, the John Sculley infused malaise they can’t bear to relive.. So you’d best dis anything that veers away from Apple dominance or it will come faster. Well that aint the way it’s going to go down. The “race” is a marathon and then we won’t even concern ourselves with “cellphone” tech in the future. Our minds will be focused on something else that “defines” our gadget experience/identities down the road. Chill out boys- they’re just phones..
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 2:59 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I agree. Its not about about Android or iPhone. Its about all this high and mightiness that comes with users. You can not just wipe every argument with complaining it doesn’t have the polish. And even if it doesn’t have it, there is a reason I am using it. Its not because I don’t understand design, or can not tell the difference between a good design and a bad one.
An example I like to take is BMW and Mercedes. Mercedes is generally regarded as the more polished interiors, which BMW is considered more speedy. Just because I pick one, doesn’t mean I don’t understand the pros and cons of the other. Its an earnest choice, and I don’t need people telling me that I don’t get it. Perhaps the world is not as black and white as you said. Not everyone is driven by smooth animations? (although I think especially with ICS the polish is there)
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:00 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
MG is why i NEVER visit Techcrunch.. It’s not a news blog, it’s more of an opinion blog…
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:03 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
iPad and Nexus S owner, I see the strengths and weaknesses of them both. The way I see it there are huge benefits of the open android platform that I prefer, and there are huge benefits to apple’s massive app ecosystem. I love the “share to” list on android where any app can share with any other app that supports incoming items. On iOS, each app must specifically support another app. It is very frustrating using iOS in this way, and every evening there are times when using my iPad that I wish I’d have an android tablet. Then I use apps on my iPad that just blow away anything android has to offer.
That’t the way I see it.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:05 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Frankly Gruber, MG and Jesus Diaz over at Gizmodo are why I hate Apple and it’s fanboys. It’s not enough that they love their products but they go out of their way to bash competing products and services to no end.
The ironic thing is that they’re all saying that Windows Phone is good at the moment but as soon as it starts gaining any serious marketshare versus iOS, they’ll be on it as much as they deride Android.
Hell, Apple-fanboy bloggers are almost single-handedly driving RIM into the ground and never giving any new product a serious chance.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:05 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
So can I take that to mean that you’ve never met an Android user? Or read an Android blog? Android fanboys are the absolute worst. Also, Apple fanboy bloggers are not why RIM is going out of business. Give me a fucking break.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:10 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
LOL. Go back to BGR.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:20 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
So, no intelligent response from you? Can’t say I’m surprised.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 5:24 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
That Sam Biddle guy…whoah.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 5:21 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Great article. I use mostly Apple products, but I can recognize that there are other companies in this industry that are doing great work. I can’t stand when others can’t.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:05 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Just as well you interviewed JG last week and not this week Hahaha
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:06 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Hey Josh, iPhone and Android devices are about the same price. Class warfare? You went there and it’s embarrassing for you. It’s about quality not price.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:07 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
The same quality that has an iPhone shatter in a drop test by not the SGS2?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:22 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Software discussion.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:28 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
No, MG wrote a review of the GNex to precipitate this. He included Android in his review as part of a lack of “polish.” Hardware enters into it because Apple’s decision to make nonfunctional parts of its phones out of glass is part of that vaunted “polish.”
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 5:24 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Android isn’t buggy and laggy because of the glass back on the iPhone 4/s
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 10:41 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
golf clap
Thank you Josh. Someone prominent in the community finally said it. Interestingly enough, this sort of condescending attitude leaks over to WP7. And the result?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:07 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Thanks for the link – nice bit of traffic.
Call it what you want but I don’t think it’s a condescending attitude per se – just having impossibly high standards. Read my other blog posts, I disagree with lots of Apple’s recent direction, and find things to praise about Android.
It’s just that at the moment, iOS is objectively the best holistic mobile experience. I’d really love it if Android caught up, or if WP7 matured its ecosystem to become a worthy competitor – this isn’t a zero sum game.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 9:01 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Just like the whole Gmail incident from days back, Josh—and a lot of comments here—totally missed the point. This isn’t class warfare or iOS vs Android it’s whether you see the details and polish and care about them or you don’t.
Daniel Jalkut’s post says it the best. http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/2280/you-sense-it-or-you-dont
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:07 PM EST via mobile reply Recommend (3) Flag actions
I totally Agree. This is NOT class warfare, when both devices cost the same thing. I’m in that group of people with John & MG…DUMBFOUNDED that people would buy an Android device over an iPhone. I’ve bought 4 different Android devices (Nexus 1, G1, Xoom, Kindle Fire) all of them worse than my iPhone and iPad. The little things mean a LOT to me, which is why I cannot believed it when so many people don’t seem to share my same interests. Do I look down on people? Damn straight I do! I think they have bad taste in phones. Do I think that means I’m a better person than them? Uh…no, were talking about phones here, not world politics.
So step off your high horse Josh…you work as a tech blogger. It’s not important enough to get THAT worked up.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:25 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
First of all, dude – you kick ass. It took guts to do two things. One – to post an actula positive review of something not made by Apple. Tech journalism is every bit as sheep following the leader as mainstream journalism, and for you to step out of line to question that is heartening. Second, I applaud you slapping back at arrogant web celebs. Again, this isn’t really done, and you stepped up to do it when it was called for. I can’t stand arrogance in any form, and I 100% support you knocking it down where you see it.
I have an iPhone and an Android Tablet and both have pluses and minuses. The iPhone keyboard just sucks big time. The autocorrect is wrong more than it’s right, and not having suggestions on the keyboard is a real pain in the ass. Not having a back button on the iPhone sucks. When I click a Twitter link, open the browser and want to go back to Twitter, I can actually do that on Android. iPhone, not so much. I can’t put my stupid calendar on my stupid lock screen. Really Apple? Jesus.
Android? The apps generally suck. I mean, they look bad, halfway don’t work – just a pain. My tablet is crashy as hell, to the point that it’s really, REALLY annoying, Try synching music on an Android device. Doubletwist is far and away the best way to do this, and it kind of sucks, and it REALLY sucks when anything goes wrong.
My point is that there are features of both to like and dislike. What works for some people doesn’t work others. Either way, there’s no need to be an arrogant jerk about it.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:07 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
So basically you don’t know how to use an iPhone, you don’t understand what objectivity is and apparently think it takes “guts”, you used the word “sheep” which automatically disqualifies you from having an IQ higher than a fencepost.
You appear to think Apple products get good ratings because “it’s what everybody else is doing” which is so stupid I don’t even.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:13 PM EST reply Recommend (3) Flag actions
I love my iPad, but it has serious limitations that the Android pads don’t have. It also has a simpler interface and doesn’t try to over achieve behind it’s means. You probably, on the other hand, have never even used an Android OS for more than a minute.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:23 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Oh, so you’re going to defend this idiot. Okay, explain his inability to open a link and then get back to Twitter. He can’t figure it out. I would double click the home button and click Twitter, but that’s just me. What’s his malfunction? And what’s yours for taking his side?
He’s trying to say that no tech blogs are objective, and that they’re all sheep, giving Apple products good reviews. You agree with that too? Note that these points have nothing to do with me using Android, and therefore neither does your comment about me using Android.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 5:29 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Oh Snap!
I think Josh looked at this and thought to reply to it NOT because there is not a billion Apple fans here that think like that themselves and post every day and night that way…but because those are people with broader range of readers…dunno… i just haven´t seen Josh respond to EVEN WORST mindset commenters here, or TIMN or Engadget before… Maybe he just wants to generate some buzz about something… whatever… he did a better point and was sort of neutral (even though we know he is ATM an Android User and ICS fan), but i think he knows what to expect from those bloggers and fin it odd that this provoked this rant in response to those people…
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:08 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
The tone was a bit douchey, sure. But I’m going to take the unpopular side here and say that despite that, Seigler was right, at least in a sense.
After the sentence quoted here, Siegler went on and gave concrete examples of the type of “polish” that Android is still missing, such as having to tap a second time to bring up a keyboard when in a text field. That’s inefficient and unnecessary. There’s no logical or conceivable reason in most situations not to bring up the text field immediately, Yet, that’s the behavior — still the behavior — and there’s no simple way to override that behavior as a developer. It’s frankly user-hostile. It favors the edge cases over the common case.
That’s a bit of polish iPhone users take for granted and that annoys the hell out of us when we use Android phones. And believe me, I do use and develop for Android phones as well as iOS. I have a half-dozen different models sitting on my desk here. I’ve tried to live with several Android phones and have always returned to iPhone. So, feel free to disagree with me, but don’t accuse me of an uninformed opinion.
I’ve seen several people say they can’t quantify why iOS is better. Bullshit. I can. I call it taps-to-complete. How many taps does it take to do the most frequent tasks. On early versions of Android, there was a striking difference from the iPhone. I spent a weekend with 2.2 and an iPhone doing exactly the same tasks on both phones (when possible). Not once was the Android phone (a Nexus One at that time) more efficient. Not for a single task. For me, this offset any advantage Android may have had. Pseudo-“openness” is a lower priority than getting shit done on a day to day basis.
Every release of Android has improved a small amount, but never enough. ICS is definitely better in this respect. But it’s still less efficient to use in most cases and definitely in the most common use cases, the things we do every day. If you’re used to taking three or four taps to do something, it doesn’t seem like a big deal to take three or four taps to do it. If you’re used to two, it does. Some people have more of a tolerance for this, others are simply unaware that it could be different. Does that mean it’s not a good phone? Of course not. But for day-to-day tasks, out of the box (the way the vast majority of people will use it), Android is still more cumbersome..
You can argue all day about subjective things like aesthetics (I find Android’s the default Android visuals not to my taste, but I also find the design of some of the newer iPhone apps like Find my Friends distasteful as well, neither would prevent me from using the respective devices), but you can quantify reasons why Android still isn’t there, still isn’t as good of a phone. As a developer, I can give you a much longer list. There are lists that go the other way, sure, so it will depend on your personal preferences. If, for example, having a phone you can customize heavily is important to you, it may outweigh the extra taps. That doesn’t mean there aren’t extra taps to make or that the fact that you have to do extra taps compared to a competitor isn’t a valid criticism.
If you’re taking issue with the tone of MC Seigler’s article, I’m not going to argue with you one little bit. He comes off like a prick in those paragraphs you pulled out and quoted (though, in fairness, they come across much worse out of context). But you seem to be saying that because the tone is bad, his opinion is invalid. It’s not. He has valid criticisms that your review completely overlooked. And, frankly, your review read just as starry-eyed and fanboyish as anything Gruber has ever written. Glass houses and all.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:08 PM EST reply Recommend (7) Flag actions
MG sounds like an entitle asshole in all of his posts.
Every platform has its benefits and miscues. There are things that the iPhone does better than the Nexus and there are things that the Nexus does better than the iPhone.
The notification system on Android is still better than the iOS5 notification system, even though iOS copied Android on that front.
The iOS keyboard is one of the best the ICS keyboard comes very close though.
What iOS does better than Android is it thinks for the user. Which is both good and bad, depending on the user. They’re different. People have different tastes and personalities. is iOS more polished than GB , sure. Is it more polished than ICS, nope. Is it more polished than Mango, nope.
Apple took the smartphone and changed the game, but everyone caught up may be even surpassed them in some respects.
Its okay to appreciate what other’s are doing, MG on the other hand doesn’t take that approach. He’s an un-apologetic Apple fanboy. He doesn’t give a shit if what he’s saying makes sense or how douche-y he is. As long as what he writes serves his Apple worshiping ways he’s okay with it. Which is why its horseshit.
Side note :
Tap-to-complete or click-to-complete is not an accurate metric when measuring user satisfaction. There are apps that take more clicks but are certainly easier to use. When you’re measuring user satisfaction it goes beyond merely how many taps does it take to accomplish something.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:39 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
There are lists that go the other way, sure, so it will depend on your personal preferences.
Which is the whole point. I own an iPhone, but don’t go telling (or even think of) my Android owning friends as ignorant/lacking taste, etc just because of their choice of handset. These guys seem to make a living off of doing it. It’s just a preference.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:39 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
You can’t really take MG or Gruber too seriously. Their posts are well written, but formulaic. They make a lot of money comforting Apple product owners daily.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:08 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Yes, I agree with you. It is always sad to see when people aren’t capable to show that they have empathy. Furthermore it is of course always frustrating when you value others opinions, to see them fall.
A reason could be that they want to get the debate going, the views rollin’ or some other less moral and ethically correct cause. These are very real and not for the fragile of us that have been out of the “cave.”
The good thing about your responds, is that people can now show where their loyalty towards one or the other. Make no mistake Joshua, they will and it’s a good thing. People want to get fired up, once in a while.
So for the crux – The way you argue your point. You take over the conversation and for the wise and objective, you are doing an amazing job.
The next step is to leave people with an overall thought of being worth something Better.
I hope you did. I could have wished for more feelings, as a father hurt by his beloved sons.
Best regards,
Samuel.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:10 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Thanks for saying what we were all thinking after the pompous Arrington-wannabe posted that insulting, demeaning, condescending, and outright biased post last night, that of course, Gruber picked up on immediately, and concurred accordingly as if it were gospel.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:10 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Wow, the comments here read like a Josh/Verge fan club meeting. From outside the echo chamber, my opinion is that MG’s analogy was valid, and I agree with his main point.
The world is divided into two groups: those for whom the little details like UI responsiveness are supremely important, and those who don’t notice it or don’t care so much.
I’d also note that gadget sites like The Verge are incentivised to make Android seem interesting and competitive, even when it doesn’t live up, because their business model is based on churning out large numbers of announcements and reviews. If they acknowledge that the devices are second-rate then why would their readers care to click their pages?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:11 PM EST reply Recommend (7) Flag actions
very good point. Imagine Google coming out with the only Android phone and tablet once a year.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:21 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
They essentially do.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 4:43 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Google makes phones? Since when? Oh that’s right, they do open source software.
knock knock
“Who’s there?”
“Motorola”
Oh shit.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 6:58 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
How many phones are released each year with android as google intended? As in a totally stock rom? Forget Motorola, that hasn’t happened yet.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 1:23 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
And if Apple weren’t doing so great both MG and John would be out of a job. Everyone has their own bias and agenda. I just think perpetrating people who prefer other devices as ignorant types who have not “seen the light” is shocking at best. As are the Android fans who like to portray iPhone users as novices.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:34 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Actually MG would continue as a Venture Capitalist and John would just focus on other topics that interest him like Kubrick or Baseball.
You don’t know much about either of these guys, do you?
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 7:05 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Gruber was talking about Apple back in 2002 way before they got this big. I suspect he’d still talk about Apple but he also writes for a sports site.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 5:51 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Not only is that last paragraph insanely insulting to the staff of this site, but it also flies in the face of what The Verge is supposed to be. This is not a “gadget” site.
Sorry if that makes me sound like a member of the “Josh/Verge fan club”.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 4:27 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Wow feed the trolldroids much? Heres a some 411 type info, some people DO buy things because they are more expensive, BECAUSE they are expensive. Whole industries are based on this premise, why so shocked. Call me a vapid, 1%’er, but I wouldnt drive a honda, because its, um a Honda. No offense, but I can afford “better” cars, and my definition of whats “better” is mine and mine alone. To the point of crapdroid, tech bubble dwelling types dont understand the android “user” consists of the following:
-Nerds
-People who hate apple products (usually related)
-People with no money (though this is fleeting because theres cheap “smartphones” on other platforms)
-People with no taste (flame on)
But the overwhelming majority are, hold on this is going to be crazy I know, people WHO DO NOT CARE what “platform” the phone runs on. ITS A PHONE. They walk into a carrier, say I want an iphone, and until recently the response was, but we have this (insert galaxy droid stupendous superlative mark 2 7337 edition here). Its sad that no one gets this.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:14 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
“But the overwhelming majority are, hold on this is going to be crazy I know, people WHO DO NOT CARE what "platform" the phone runs on. ITS A PHONE.”
Just like how the vast majority of Windows users over the past 20 years or so, didn’t give a crap about what build the OS was or what version of Office they were running. The went to Best Buy, shot for a price point, picked something that looked appealing, maybe from a brand they liked, and bought it. Most people are normal, and no nerds. Most people are indiscriminating when it comes to technology, AND THAT’S OK, because technology is meant to be used by PEOPLE not Phds who actually work on this stuff everyday. They’re called Consumers.
What Josh found offensive is, for a guy who does work on this stuff all day long, he found himself (after backing the Nexus) being lumped in with the indiscriminate casual Android user who doesn’t know or care what build of Android he/she got. He was hurt by it.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 6:55 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Interesting Post nice work.
Im an Android user and have a bit experience with ios,
ios works fluid and people just like how it works but its kinda boring imo the interface is still the same as it did like 4 years ago, for some people its a good thing because they dont want/need change if they buy a new Phone.
But my next phone will be a Android 4.x device ;-) Im happy with Android and that wont change i think however if Apple comes with a good deal i might consider but at this point i dont think it will happen for me.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:14 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
… and this ladies and gentleman we come to the verge.
Thank you.
Cat picture.

Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:14 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
That cat looks too smug and elitist for my liking.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 5:47 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
probably also owns a Mercedes and appreciates iOS
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 9:00 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
bloody trolcat
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 9:05 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Coming from an iPhone user: This a really well written article and just goes to show you how myopic the lemon and fireball are.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:20 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Regardless of how myopic we think the Lemon and the Fireball are, this is not a well written article. It is a juvenile rant at best, totally uncharacteristic of JT’s other writing. You may be in complete agreement with JT’s sentiments and hurt feelings but that doesn’t make it a well written article.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 1:19 AM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
While I agree with Josh that there can often be a tone of superiority in the writings of tech bloggers, I also want to point out that what he’s quoting from MG seems a lot worse out of context and seems more nitpicky than anything else.
His entire article was framed around being an iPhone fan using an Android device. He even says:
From there, he really does point out the things he dislikes about the phone, not just praising iPhones left and right. In fact, he mentions a few things the Galaxy Nexus has gotten right that Apple should be copying in return! So I feel like a lot of the criticisms against MG in this thread are a bit unfounded and make it look as though many of the people here haven’t even read his piece thoroughly.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:22 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
I have nothing more to say here…amazing stuff…well written and I read the piece this morning and felt almost the same way.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:22 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
And what of those (myself included) who got the iPhone first, and really enjoyed it….and then caught the glimmer of an Android phone….tried it…and realized it fit their lifestyle and their tech-can-do-that needs?
There’s a reason why android sales keep climbing, and it’s not because people are brazenly choosing Honda over Mercedes. IOS and android, to me, aren’t so strikingly different. With honeycomb and ice cream sandwich, I’d say that android has gotten to that super polished state. Perhaps instead of Honda vs Mercedes, we have two different models of Mercedes.
It’s all about user preference. I’m not a degenerative hick for leaving iPhone for android. It fit my needs. As a consumer and as someone who isn’t a mindless drone, my tech buys are based on “will this fit into my life?” Not “what do the bloggers think is better?”
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:23 PM EST via mobile reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Personally I was fine with my Android phone until I got an iPad2,. After using iOS for a while, I could not stand how laggy Android was. Now I think using Android is like poison.
BTW, I also prefer Windows and don’t see why people (like Josh) say OSX is such a better experience. I guess you either see it or you don’t.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:25 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
You know Josh, a lot of times I find myself disagreeing with you. But this…this is something the tech community needs to hear and reflect on. Even though my mobile OS of choice is WP7 that doesn’t mean I should have my head stuck in the sand to the rest of the tech world. Thanks for a really good rant.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:25 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
From the heart and extraordinarily meaningful. How can Gruber be so negligent to other technology ?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:26 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Oh Josh, normally I’d totally agree with you, but it seems like you’ve just taken this in totally the wrong way. You’ve fixated on overtones that aren’t even there.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:28 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
Can we take this debate on the next episode of On The Verge? MG, Gruber, and Josh all debating the points Josh raises in this article.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:28 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
If episode 2 was anything to go by that interview would go for 45 minutes and MG and Gruber would get like 3 Sentences in each.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 7:07 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Thanks for saying what needed to be said. There’s evangelism from both sides, but I find MG in particular a very special brand of annoying.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:28 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
My, my, thats quite a rant.
While I don’t have much time for MG, I do for JG and I agree in principle with what he is saying.
The difference between iPhone and the Nexus(or any other phone), between an Apple computer and a Windows PC IS like the difference between a premium car and a “standard” car.
I don’t think Honda and Mercedes are a particularly good example , maybe Ford, GM, Nissan Vs Audi (which I happen to drive)
Despite the dismissive comments on here about all the phones being the same price, that is only the case in the US where the market is skewed by the price of contracts. Everywhere else in the world, the iPhone is a premium price product and people who buy it know they are paying more for it.
So why do they do it? For the same reason they buy an Audi rather than the others I mentioned.
If I drive a Ford or GM car I get rattles and squeaks I don’t get on my Audi. I touch plastics that are of poorer quality, I see poorer shutlines on the body, messier stitching on the seats.
When I have them serviced a get sloppiness I don’t get at Audi, I get arguments over problems that would just get fixed at Audi.
When I try an Android phone (and I tried the Nexus, Note and HTC Sensation S just last week), I get cheap plastics, I get poor fit. I get input lag even with the latest version and I get app crashes.
I use my iPhone (or my iPad, iMac, Macbook) and I get immaculate finish, I get attention to detail, I get reliability and smoothness and I get superb customer service. Just the same as I get with my Audi.
I could have chosen a Ford or a Nissan and got a bigger car or a bigger engines or more “features” but I chose an Audi because it gives me a better user experience.
Thos are exactly the same reasons I chose an iPhone.
It is not about “class”, it is about priorities and choices. Those are the priorities that matter to me and I chose Audi and Apple.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:31 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
I think there are two issues with Siegler and Gruber’s statements.
The first one comes down to an inability to recognise varying tastes and preferences. Gruber writes “You either see it or you don’t”. Like Josh said, things aren’t this black and white. Where’s “You see (negative) but you don’t care because it also does (positive)?”
I’m sure there are plenty of Android fans who do see ‘it’, but don’t care or prioritise something else entirely. Look at the poster above who said they don’t care if their phone is unstable because they want to be able to customise everything and load prerelease custom ROMs. I get that. The “freedom to tinker” is one of the reasons I will never* own a Mac desktop. I certainly don’t understand that desire on a phone, where my goal above all else is reliability, ease of use, app/game support and worldwide tech support. (Try getting an on-the-spot replacement of your Galaxy Nexus while overseas, like I have with iPhones). But I get it that my goals are different.
But I think the real problem is with Siegler’s car analogy. We’re talking $199 and $299 phones versus $199 and $299 phones. It’s not class warfare. At all. Not only is it overstating what is a relatively minor difference, the whole thing breaks down into an emotional response. No one wants to be the Honda next to a Mercedes. I don’t think there are many people that, would argue a Mercedes is a better built and designed car (depending on model), or that there’s a level of elitism based on that. Siegler wasn’t saying that more expensive things are better, at all. He was arguing for an attention to detail using a terrible analogy that provoked an emotional (and somewhat irrational) response in Josh (on that one point at least).
…but Gruber and Siegler are also right, in a way. There are many people out there that simply don’t see it. It’s easier to tabulate RAM, screen size, weight, number of megapixels, download speed, or whatever else than it is quantify user experience. It’s also not very helpful.
They’re still wrong that the user experience is the be-all-and-end-all, It’s just the other end of the spectrum, and everyone has to find their own place on that spectrum. Unfortunately, it’s the design end that’s harder to quantify, and convey. Which is why you see Apple users often characterised as trendy sheeple, or embarrassing articles like this one.
Gruber and Siegler also aren’t alone. We’re all blinded by our own preferences to some degree, and definitely guilty of seeing the world in a binary black-and-white system…whether we’re turning a preference into OS X into “Windows is poison” hyperbole, characterising iPhone users as brainwashed Apple faithful, or characterising Android users as being blind to good design rather than merely having different preferences.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:33 PM EST reply Recommend (5) Flag actions
Well said. There’s a lot of focus being put on Siegler’s car analogy that I think is a bit misplaced. It’s obviously not the most fair comparison but I wouldn’t use it as the centerpiece of his article at all. He still had a lot of great things to say about the Galaxy Nexus
I guess that doesn’t really matter to a lot of people :\
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:41 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Yeah the snobby car analogy really rubs everyone the wrong way. Worded badly.
Having said that, aren’t Android fans constantly bemoaning the lack of ports and, well, hackability/functionality of Apple gear? And isn’t the prime benefit of such ‘locked down’ hardware, a refined and clean design? I think you can see where I’m going with this: Apple makes design a priority, and Google makes openness a priority (just like Windows did a couple decades ago. It’s a good strategy if you want big marketshare). That doesn’t mean that NO ONE at Apple works on functionality, and it doesn’t mean NO ONE at Google works on design, it’s just the priorities are reversed. And I don’t think that’s unreasonable. Mattias Duarte (groan) probably doesn’t want to print it on his business cards, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say at all.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 6:50 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Bravo, sir, bravo.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:35 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
The whole post is intellectually dishonest. Josh says he wouldn’t want to live in a world of only iPhones or (presumably) only Android phones. Well no kidding, if the fanboy wars died down The Verge, Engadget and Gizmodo would shutdown tomorrow.
Its ridiculous to suggest that Josh has any interest in an end to flamewars or a more reasonable population of fanboys. This post is red meat for the Android crowd (hence the overwhelmingly sycophantic responses in this comment thread). Josh is stirring the pot, why else take an argument that amounts to a personal attack on two competing writers public? If Josh was “offended” by what Siegler wrote let me ask this, did he seek comment or clarification from Siegler or Gruber before writing this tantrum of a post? Does anyone think he did what journalists do and try and get any clarity on the subject or did he just decide to spin out a quick rant that will certainly draw page views from the fanboys he beseeches for calm?
Before we all trip over ourselves praising Josh for his wisdom and eloquence lets not forget about the hundreds of comments that follow the two large ads at the top of the page.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:37 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
It’s not intellectually dishonest. It’s just a shroud of delusion being lifted.
What you are committing here is an “appeal to motive”.
I’m an iPhone user, and I’d be damned if ever I thought other humans couldn’t make a better phone than the one “I” use and cherish. Great job Josh.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:53 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
I think Josh’s post is great. We have to be careful about the tone of the things we say.
I also think Gruber’s “You either see it or you don’t” is fine, too. He’s an opinion columnist. You read his site, you’re getting his opinion. That’s what it’s for.
Speaking of cars: Have any of you watched Top Gear? They’ve got cars they like and cars they don’t. They’re not kind to the cars they don’t like. That’s okay – the point of the show is that they know a lot about cars. Sometimes they dislike things that are intangible. They talk about the cheap feel of a car, or the quality of its ride. They have preferences and sometimes express them caustically and sarcastically. Gruber does the same.
I think that’s why we often wind up talking about cars when we talk about modern phones. The intangibles have become more important than the specs. And I’m glad we have people like Gruber and Topolsky that take these things seriously, and try to get to the bottom of what they mean.
I just hope you guys can point your attention away from each other and back on the tech.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:38 PM EST reply Recommend (3) Flag actions
This whole post is horseshit. Get over yourself. The analogies used are spot on. Nearly veryone I know that uses Android will never take the time to try an iOS device. If you wanted to make a decent counter argument, you should apply that same logic to ios users, which is probably true too.
I’ve used both, and I can promise you, Android is a Honda and iOS is a Merc. (I prefer Lexus, which I would never have appreciated until I got to drive one for a week, now I aspire to own one)
Stop your whining and write something useful.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:39 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Maybe you missed the fact that neither of those guys are “journalists” writing for a traditional media news site. They’re just two guys who shared their OPINION on their own sites.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:46 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Well, Gruber isn’t, but technically MG was writing for TechCrunch and not his ParisLemon blog.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:48 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I have to say, as someone who follows both MG and John, and largely takes the same opinion as them as far as device and OS preferences are concerned (and really, so many of their observations are well said and explained, especially Gruber), I completely agree. I read that passage in the review and just thought, “Whuuuuuu?”
Honestly, I even agree with them that iOS still seems to be slightly more polished than ICS, and I’ve seen reasonable explanations as to why (3rd parties not using the nicer API’s Google has implemented, meaning much of the software you use detracts from how good the native stuff feels—they introduce inconsistencies between how apps handle the same types of fields and so on). But the way MG stated it there is to just say “because I said so and you can’t say otherwise”. It’s just wrong.
If you think something is better, you need to be able to articulate the differences and which of those differences align with your preference versus against your preference. You have to be able to articulate what, if any, strengths the other side has and establish that your preferences cause you to prefer the aforementioned strengths of your platform over the ones you potentially see in its competitor.
You don’t have to say the other device or OS is even equivalent to your preferred one, but you have to establish why you don’t think it is.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:46 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Joshua Topolsky, who makes sure that the facts don’t favor one company over another.
Your version of “Fair and Balanced”, right?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:47 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
The first paragraph alone turned me off from the article, what a pompous fool.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:48 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
Your user-tag is great!
Posted on Dec 20, 2011 | 7:30 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Hahahahahaha. From what was once considered the Grand Exemplar of iFans to writing Android advocacy pieces. Never change Topolsky. You will always be my favorite tech journalist
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:50 PM EST via mobile reply Recommend Flag actions
It’s not an Android advocacy piece. You don’t understand concepts.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:51 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
I am not going to say whether I agree or disagree with the issue at hand. My gripe with this response is simple: The entire counterpoint is a logical fallacy.
The original metaphor was not intended to drive home the point that the rich have better taste than the middle class, it was simply intended to compare the level of detail between two products. It was a poor example to use, and I can understand why Josh’s knee-jerk reaction was to jump all over these guys.
There are two evident reasons why the choice of metaphor was unfortunate:
1. Mercedes products cost WAY more than Honda products (not the case when comparing an iPhone to top of the line Android devices.)
2. People who own Honda’s don’t necessarily lack the eye to appreciate attention to detail, they may just lack the means to acquire such items if the items in questions are expensive.
Ergo, you don’t have to be rich to appreciate style, and you are not more likely to appreciate style if you are rich. However, based on simple economics you are more likely rich if you own and support products with style. While a high price point is not required for a product to be made of quality materials and great attention to detail, it is more likely. And if that kind of product is more likely to have a high price point, it is more likely to be owned by someone who both cares about this level of detail and has the means to acquire it.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:52 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
I would like to add also that in this case the question of price or “class” as Josh put it, is irrelevant. So this whole point is moot. Some people will appreciate attention to detail, UI, a quality that Apple is known for, and others will either not get it, or get it but not care.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:55 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
A third reason that the metaphor is unfortunate is: even if somebody had the means to purchase a Mercedes, that doesn’t necessarily mean that they WOULD. They may just like Hondas better for whatever reason.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:55 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Agreed. Where some people see a simple and elegant design, others may seen a bland and sterile design.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:58 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
If you’re going to take issue with the Mercedes vs Honda comparison, you might want to start with the fact that the Mercedes in question costs $199, versus the $299 Honda.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:52 PM EST reply Recommend (3) Flag actions
Last time I checked the 32gb iPhone was $299.Besides, wan’t there an article about being able to get the galaxy nexus for $150 or something? Oh, why yes there was. That’s something you really don’t see with iPhones, they’re rarely on sale, and when they are the price difference is relatively small.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 3:59 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
The 16 GB iPhone 4S is just as polished as the 32 GB iPhone 4S: it’s still running iOS 5.
If you’re going to argue about hardware specs, we could then dock a few more points from the Nexus for having a 5 megapixel camera versus the iPhone 4S’s 8 megapixels, then you’d bring up LTE, and so on — the original point is still valid: the “Mercedes” can actually be bought for less money than the “Honda”.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 4:06 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Honestly it’s all relative. For me android is the Mercedes. I’m not one of those people who take a ton a photos, thus the better camera is not a big factor for me. I do quite a bit of web browsing, so 4g speeds are important.Of course you may have different needs, and as such prefer the iphone. I guess what I should have said in my original post, is that comparing the operating system of each is like comparing apples and oranges. I like apples better, others like oranges, whatever suits you the best.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 4:18 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I have no problem with that. I like Android for what it is, and I like iOS for what it is. The original post by Joshua, though, takes issue with that Mercedes comparison, claims that this is getting into class warfare. Regardless of which is the Mercedes in this comparison, the fact remains that the 32 GB model of each phone is equally priced at $299. All “classes” have equal access to each phone, so calling it class warfare is being disingenuous.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 4:24 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Ah, I believe the key statement here is
The point isn’t that one phone costs more than another, it’s that MG is creating a rift that doesn’t need to be made by making it seem like the iphone is the obvious mercedes for everyone and, as we have discussed, isn’t that straight forward. What really get’s me though, is when he prefaces his comment by saying . To dismiss the opinions of others as being wrong because they use a platform that’s not the same as his is like someone who enjoys big macs saying anyone who likes whoppers just doesn’t understand the joy of a big mac.Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 5:09 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
This is their point on what Android people don’t ‘get’ though. Why can’t you be OK with callng the iPhone the Mercedes (if we completely ignore the price differences). Why can’t Android people admit that their phones don’t have as much attention paid to the quality of the fit+finish, but this Android phone is a Dodge SUV, that Android phone is a better pick-up truck, this Android phone is a Toyota sedan.
If your car has great features and more features than the Mercedes, why do you still insist on denying the fact that the Mercedes is the car where they weren’t as sloppy with their material choices, that Mercedes paid more attention to the ordering of controls and figuring out what people really need within reach, that it’s more consistently polished on the inside and out… You can say your car is a Toyota or Honda or what have you… but when Android people keep insisting they have a Mercedes when they literally have a Honda or Saturn or Hummer, that’s what makes it an either you get it or don’t sort of thing. Unless you’re truly holding a Mercedes competitor, which a station wagon or Hummer or minivan doesn’t even try to be, just stop it. Let me have my Mercedes, and I can understand why the pickup suits you better, but I want something nicer.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 11:33 PM EST via mobile reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
I will give you this… I am on my second Android phone, and I wouldn’t give up its amazing functionality for any of iPhone’s alleged “fit and finish” advantages.
On that topic, btw, I’m still waiting for someone to tell me where having a glass back fits into the whole “polish” thing…
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 5:37 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
So you’re requirement for the phone is… fast web browsing and not much else? It’s not exactly a ringing endorsement for Android? Go on…
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 6:44 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
No, hramos brought up the point that the iphone has a better camera, with which I agree, but it lacks LTE. Since I value LTE more than the difference in quality of the two cameras, I then stated that android better suits my needs. Nowhere did I say that the only requirement I wish for in a phone is fast web browsing,
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 7:03 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I’m replying to TheFaithfulVergin to maintain the thread, but this is actually a reply to 21tiger, as I’m in agreement with TFV.
—
Right. I brought up the camera and LTE as it relates to my point on how it is actually fair to compare the $199 iPhone 4S, with its 16 GB, to the $299 Galaxy Nexus with 32 GB of storage. The $199 16 GB iPhone 4S is just as polished as the $299 32 GB 4S, I argue. Then I went on to explain that if hardware spec parity was desired, it wasn’t actually possible: even when comparing the 32 GB iPhone 4S to the Galaxy Nexus, you’d still have a disparity where the iPhone has a better camera. So you’d have to account for the fact that for $299, the 4S is actually bringing more to the table. And I was admitting that a fair comeback would be to point out that the Galaxy Nexus has LTE, which the iPhone doesn’t. Regardless of which feature you prefer, the point was that you can’t achieve hardware spec parity and that the 16 GB vs 32 GB price point was a fair comparison as each choice doesn’t affect the fit and polish of the underlying OS.
FWIW, I’d prefer the better camera, but last week I was lucky to have on loan an unreleased LTE hotspot device from AT&T and was blown away by its incredible download and upload speeds.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 10:58 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
If we throw MSRP out the window, I present you with this $99 iPhone 4S 16 GB and $199 iPhone 4S 32 GB.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 4:09 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
You’re proving the opposite point. Usually it’s quality products that rarely go on sale, especially when they are in high demand. Additionally the retail prices of Androids and iPhones are pretty much the same.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 8:32 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I’ve never needed to comment but in this case I had to create an account just to say Thank You.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 4:01 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Josh, I love ya man, but I think you were taking it too personal here. Are you becoming an Android fanboy?
You can’t deny that iOS is way more refined than Android. As a droid incredible owner I constantly had to take the battery out to reset the device after it locked up. The fact that I had to download an app to manage processes running in the background is just insane.
As an iPhone 4s owner, everything just works and I don’t have to deal with the OS.
I don’t believe MG was speaking from a class of people point of view. He was just articulating the difference between Apple, who’s mission is
Refine the user experience, and google who doesn’t seem to give a shit.
Stevie Wonder can do everything you can do with an iPhone. That means something.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 4:11 PM EST via mobile reply Recommend (5) Flag actions
There’s always one article that makes you sign up for a site to comment. This was the one. REALLY DISAPPOINTED at the conclusions your drew from this Josh.
Most of your comments are directly correlated to Android users versus Apple users and you repeatedly say how awful it was for MG to take that stance. Why though? Of course people who love Android are going to disagree. MG just calls it out. He’s not bashing. He references Jason K as a respected Android user who might go back to Android because of the Nexus. What’s the problem?
The big one though – class warfare… REALLY?? Time for a wake up call, this is not 2007 and Apple in 2011 should not be considered a company tailoring to the wealthy, especially not for mobile. 3GS = Free, 4 = $99, 4s = $199. NEXUS = $299! Sorry, I don’t think your class warfare comment is relevant. Stop making MG and Gruber look like rich, pretentious jerks because of the way you misinterpreted something. MG makes no reference to cost, you did. Fact – iPhone is cheaper than Nexus. No correlation between that and the car reference in terms of cost… only quality.
Maybe it’s not MG that should be embarrassed by his writing.
ps – I’m an Android user
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 4:20 PM EST reply Recommend (3) Flag actions
the fact that MG didn’t actually make any arguments was what josh was upset by. It’s all right to not like the iPhone or not like Android, but what Josh was upset by is the fact that MG dismissed Android without providing any specific reason why the iPhone was better. Simply comparing an iPhone to a benz and an Android phone to a Honda isn’t an argument; it’s fanboy-talk.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 4:24 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I guess I disagree. From MG’s review I got the following information:
The device is larger than he likes, he DOES like all software buttons (no hardware menu), He likes the indicator light better than iPhone’s lack of it, It feels plastic-y, good battery life, decent, very usable camera (but slightly worse than iPhone 4s), Android 4.0 ICS is very solid, really likes multi-tasking, lacks “polish,” focusing on text fields drove him crazy, it would be better with integrated messaging, google/facebook sync does nothing, voice control leaves much to be desired, he prefers the new iOS notifications to Android, the browser is slightly slower than safari, and it has some lag where it probably shouldnt… on so on, and so on (skipped the app section).
To me, I just learned everything I would want to know. I currently use Android, my gf an iPhone. I’m able to relate to most of these comments. If you stopped reading after the benz vs honda comment then yes, I agree with you. Otherwise, I’m not sure what additional information you could be looking for.
And lastly – the best piece of advice: At the end of the day what device do I reach to? iPhone. Yea, MG is an Apple Fanboy, but I really don’ t think his reasoning is bad. I’ve used the Droid X for 15 or so months now and I can related to a lot of the Android frustration people experience. I find less of that from the iPhone users.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 3:58 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
I think it’s unfair to Honda when people keep comparing it to Android. Honda is a reliable, well made car. A more apt analog would be a Chinese domestic knockoff that looks like a Mercedes but only superficially. It doesn’t have any of the benefits.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 4:28 PM EST reply Recommend (3) Flag actions
Really love The Verge but this seems just a pointless rant.
“You either see it or you don’t” just means that there are some little details that change the whole experience for some people while are totally negligible=invisible to some other people. There’s no smugness in that.
Also this kind of comparison is a non-sense: Android gives a lot of choice about the phones you can buy (design, features, OS Skins), Android has every kind of strange app you might need, Android gives you (and apps) a lot more control and for all this Android pays its price.
iOS instead is entirely based on the belief that a limited set of beautifully crafted features and apps is all that’s needed – Less is more.
Like someone said there are people that love to customize their cars and people that would never use a sticker! Just make your choice.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 4:33 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
I agree with the author, but think the post itself is something of a mistake. The original article was pretty standard MG linkbait, designed to inflame. It worked.
But while I’m here…
As a user of both an iPad and an Android phone (and a usability specialist), I’m pretty shocked at the obvious usability problems that litter iOS, and that Android does right. Some examples:
1) Watch a movie on the iPad. Move to the middle of the movie. If you didn’t just reach for the volume slider (inexplicably located right under the forward and rewind icons), then you’re ahead of every new user iPad I’ve ever seen.
2) Google “ipad back button” and enjoy the billions of iOS users who long for an Android-style way of exiting apps.
3) Ask a new iOS user how to see all their apps. Now ask them to download a new one. It’s a disaster compared to Android.
4) Look at the “new” features in iOS5 that were lifted from Android, and tell me again who is copying who (hint: they’re copying each other).
Yes, iOS is graphically nicer (although I haven’t seen ICS) thanks to a more uniform icon set and the lack of 3rd party carriers with no design skills. But functionally, Android’s usability is generally equal, and often superior.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 4:40 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
“3) Ask a new iOS user how to see all their apps. Now ask them to download a new one. It’s a disaster compared to Android.”
The first ‘challenge’ is bizarre: on iOS you just swipe left and right, and for most users you can fit all your apps on one screen (folders). As for the second, ….You have a problem with searching the App Store on the phone? What the?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 6:37 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
1. One has the time of the movie on the controls and the other does not. How difficult is that to really understand?
2. You’ve got to be joking. The Android hard back button is considered one of the worst designs ever conceived. Nobody knows where that back button takes you . Some apps you go back to the previous screen and other times you just exit the app.
3. What does this mean? All the apps icons are right there. It’s the first thing you see on any iOS device.
Are you seriously telling me that people don’t know to press the App Store icon to get new apps? I’ve seen 5 year olds do this.
4. Other than pull down push notifications, what else did Apple use from Android? On the other hand, almost the entirety of what Android is was taken from the iPhone.
I think in some areas Android does exceed the iPhone in usability but it is not in anything you mentioned.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 7:07 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
This is just Siegler being an asshole, as usual. He’s painted himself into the fanboy corner and built up a wall so he can’t see anything beyond it. If he would open his eyes, maybe he could see that his writing simply makes him look pompous and not the badass he sees in his carefully constructed mirror. MG: open your mind, it’s refreshing.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 4:40 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I disagree with Josh’s comments. I think they are an overreaction to say the least. Siegler, and especially Gruber, aren’t saying people who like Android or the Nexus are somehow lower class. Sielger, in fact, points out many specific issues with the new Nexus/Android 4.0 that he finds lacking in comparison to iOS.
Android has several advantages, but polish simply isn’t one of them. That’s my opinion, but an argument could be made that it’s a fact. Browser performance isn’t a smooth, for example. 4 major revisions using the same WebKit source as iOS and they still don’t have it down. That’s a problem. Now, it may not bother you personally because you may not find that particular issue important. But it exists and it’s important to Siegler so he points it out in his review.
Siegler points out that the screen is too big for his preference. That’s an objective fact (big screen) followed by his subjective opinion (it’s too big). That’s not class warfare.
Gruber’s comment I read as someone appreciating the polish Apple has applied to iOS for what Apple designed it to do. He didn’t imply it was inherently better, just that people appreciate it or they don’t. He’s not saying one has to appreciate it. People have different needs/desires/requirements.
I find Josh’s post here somewhat childish and not what I have come to expect from his usually quite professional and well-written posts. You got angry, for some reason, and you delve right into the name calling and class warfare you accuse Sielger and Gruber of doing. You seem to be adding to the problem.
It seems like people who defend Android do so despite its shortcomings rather than for its strengths. I think Josh did that here. Grading on a curve.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 4:45 PM EST reply Recommend (4) Flag actions
Ummm, no, Josh never once defended Android in this article. He attacked the “Holier- than-thou” attitude that was in the article. And I really have a hard time believing anyone could read this as anything other than that.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 5:10 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Nothing about stitched leather UI elements are “finely polished”, they’re just fugly.
I suppose this stitched leather look appeals to Mercedes owners, but certainly not to my tastes. I see it for what it is, downright ugly. I guess MG and Gruber don’t?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 4:49 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
Aren’t you participating in the type of pointless class warfare that Josh is ranting about?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 5:05 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
I’m participating in a Verge Forum Off-Topic / Chit-Chat comment section by offering an opinion on UI design choices made by Apple developers. @-LD There is nothing about offering an arbitrary subjective opinion concerning personal taste with regard to UI element choices that could be remotely compared to as “class warfare”. There is hypocrisy involved however when someone pontificates about the intangible ability to either “see it or don’t” when it comes to taste. I see the stitched leather for what it is, ugly. According to MG Siegler and John Gruber, stitched leather UI elements are “finely polished”. Doesn’t seem pointless to me at all to point out blatant hypocrisy when I see it!
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 5:28 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I don’t know about MG but Gruber is no fan of this stitched leather BS that’s infected iOS and OSX. Stop making sweeping statements.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 5:32 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
@schmozo:
“Stop making sweeping statements”
Attributing stitched leather with the value “ugly” is not a sweeping statement, it’s an opinion. Mine. Pointing out hypocrisy is not a sweeping statement, it’s an accusation and a judgement call. Mine. MG and Gruber are both entitled to their opinions as well. Most of the time I agree with them. However, there have been occasions where they pick and choose the justifications for their opinions, while ignoring other blatant examples that contradict their “sweeping statements”. Gruber dislikes stitched leather, well good for him. I agree with him.
Want to know what a sweeping statement looks like?
John Gruber
“You either see it or you don’t.”
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 7:00 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Its also an opinion that almost everyone except maybe Steve Jobs agrees with.
No one like that fucking ugly stitched leather.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 10:44 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I actually agree with you. So why don’t you see it the same way with regards to Siegler’s and Gruber’s comments? They are simply offering their subjective opinions. You don’t have to agree with them, they aren’t stating facts. And simply because you disagree doesn’t make what they said somehow class warfare.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 5:43 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
See my above reply to @schmozo.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 7:02 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
i’d love to see that quote, where he equates digital stitching to “finely polished”
maybe he was talking about some other part of the OS, or the “find my friends” feature?
I don’t think you see this in nearly neutral enough eyes.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 9:47 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I guess you missed the part where John Gruber and Josh talked about ‘the end of stitched leather’. This kind of design is wacky, but it was coming directly from Steve Jobs. You wanna flame Steve Jobs for what he thought was ‘appropriate’ design, go right ahead.
Most of iOS is very nice and appealing to look at. This kind of thing is a little bizarre, and ever the most ardent Apple Fanboys have been complaining about it ESPECIALLY on OS X Lion.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 6:35 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
@21tiger
Settle down there Tex.
First, I would like to see proof that a UI element decision to add stitched leather to several iOS apps can be attributed to Steve Jobs. Just because John Gruber says so does not make it fact or reality. Second, even if the stitched leather decision can be attributed to Steve, well, I still don’t like it. Guess what? I can disagree with Steve Jobs and that disagreement in and of itself does not indicate “flaming” on may part. Third, I’m not flaming anyone. Who are you, the forum nazi? No Verge for you…one year!
Guess what? I happen to be very fortunate to own both a beautiful white iPhone 4S and a worldband GSM Samsung Galaxy Nexus. I appreciate both devices, love using both devices, and can see the advantages and disadvantages of using either device.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 7:13 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I understand your point but just think about WHY Apple have gone down this route. It’s really all about getting the technology out of the way and making it technology for “Everybody else”. If you can’t see that Android is for you NOT iOS.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 6:01 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Well said Josh.
Sure, the Mercedes/Honda comment is more about quality than cost, but let’s face it, that’s even more insulting – ‘I could try and explain it to you, but you cannot understand’. It’s also a false statement. If such comments turned up within these forums, accusations of trolling would be swiftly forthcoming.
I’ve had a play with iOS, I wouldn’t hesitate to say that it felt more polished, smoother animations and so on, than the Android phone that was in my pocket at the time. I can perceive the quality just fine, thank you very much.
At the end of the day, a review of a consumer device should be something that the reader can use in making a decision, taking advantage of an expert (whether they be certified or self-proclaimed) opinion. If a reviewer doesn’t think that they need to approach a subject with an open mind, they are mistaken. If you think the iPhone is the better device, then you have to write that. If you think the Nexus is better, likewise. But to turn around and state, hey, it’s not as good, but I don’t expect you to understand why is useless, annoying and pointless. It’s worse than offensive, it’s a waste of peoples’ time.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 4:51 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Fantastic ! I wondered what that nasty taste in mouth was after reading MG’s “review” now I can identify it as horse shit.
The Honda/Mercedes analogy is about as tired as they get since the JD Power survey rates Honda 2nd in the reliability and satisfaction survey after Lexus and Mercedes as joint 7th with BMW. MG knows almost as much about cars as he does about Android.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 4:53 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
What a salient post which continues to elevate the Verge above and beyond EVERY SINGLE tech site and blog site in existence. Bravo, Josh for a well-written rant that could come off as a good read editorial.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 4:59 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
This is the best tech site, but they do allow for exactly the type of elitism and black & white thinking to go unchecked in the comments section. We even have infamous trolls (with the same usernames, no less) from Engadget.
If The Verge is going to be the one place where the BS doesn’t exist they need to moderate this place better.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 5:29 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I love the way this point was made. Regardless of where your preferences lie, this argument holds true. I have heard similar arguments regarding the preferred editor in Linux. :)
Another blogger I read linked this,https://plus.google.com/u/0/115963387846188704264/posts/b2Aw5YsCdnb, and almost immediately was attacked by an Apple fan trying to defend MG and Grubers statements.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 5:03 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Oh good lord, this comment thread is making my head hurt.
MG’s car analogy was lame. Car analogies are never good when applied to tech, but everyone seems to make them. It was just lazy ass writing. However, Gruber was dead on balls accurate with the idea that when it comes to Apple you either see it, or you don’t.
Josh is being a complete and total diva by even posting this nonsense and picking a blog war with these two and even opening his mouth about it to begin with. No one directed anything at Josh, but yet he’s somehow managed to interject himself into an offhand quip by Gruber. Why? Who knows. So a bunch of assclowns can leave comments on The Verge all day long I suspect.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 5:11 PM EST reply Recommend (6) Flag actions
You nailed it.
Josh is a drama queen.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 5:15 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
You just joined that list of ass-clowns!
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 5:16 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
God I am so sick of the whole OS Wars thing.
I think it’s the lowest form of blogging and commenting.
It’s the tech equivalent of posting “Do You Believe in God?”
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 5:32 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
While I would never use the term “class warfare” I agree with the sentiment that it’s artificially excluding to declare one product to be better than the other and, instead of giving a reason as to why, exclaim that, basically, there is no point explaining the reasons why because if the reader doesn’t already know then they couldn’t possibly understand it anyways.
It strikes me a bit like a teenager shouting at the world about how no one could possibly understand them so they’re just going to storm off. It’s a cult preaching that you can’t possibly understand the will of god and if you question their interpretation you are a heretic. It’s the cool kids saying that your sweater is stupid and if you don’t know why then they couldn’t tell you.
It may be difficult to describe all the little things that make such a crucial difference but you are writers. Use your words. Preferably with actual examples rather than car analogies since you are comparing two actual devices. To Siegler’s credit he does go on to describe some of the details that he finds fall short of Apple’s efforts further down in his review, which rather begs the question why he felt the need to include the section about how Android users just don’t get it in the first place.
Some people might, rather than just not getting it, genuinely prefer something different. One person’s poison may well be another person’s bliss. Some people are allergic to Champagne or strawberries, some people can’t get enough of mass market macro brewery lager or blood pudding.
People have crazy and varied reactions to things and they can all be valid and are probably at least understandable if explained in better detail than in terms of “this thing is nice and if you liked nice things, like I do, you’d get that”.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 5:38 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
HOLY S#!TBALLS YOU GUYS!
As an objective user (meaning I don’t use neither Android nor iOS), I think is really funny how both Gruber & MG think that iOS is in any way elitist or exclusive to some people when you could practically throw a rock and hit an iPhone somewhere… That is by definition NOT ELITIST!
The truth is, and mind you I don’t believe in generalizations, this kind of thought is derived by the fact that these guys NEED to feel like they have a superior product because it defines their personality and they NEED to put down the competition to make themselves fell better. Here’s an analogy for ya’: It’s like the Olympic runner that looses the race because he kept looking backward…
Which leads me to:
And come on people… comparing an iPhone to a Mercedes? Really?
Much Love!
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 5:40 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Let’s just say that if u think an iPhone is the same as a Mercedes, then you have never owned a Mercedes.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 6:07 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
And by the way, the Nexus that Josh loves so much is like $300 + contract. It’s more expensive than the iPhone.
The elitism isn’t about wealth at all, it’s about style, taste and sensibility. The accusation is that Android lacks taste and polish.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 6:31 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Elitism means that it belongs to an elite, a very exclusive group of people… Elitism has nothing to do with taste…
I’m telling you these people need a reality check… it’s a phone for crying out loud… there was no need to insult, right?
Much Love!
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 1:51 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
32 GB iPhone, which is the fair comparison, is also $300 + contract. There are plenty of cheaper Android phones if you want to compare Apples & oranges…
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 3:46 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Especially Mercedes from the 90s. They really dropped the ball back then!
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 10:18 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
dude, gruber&mg did NOT say that, josh just misinterpreted one thing totally wrong!
MG compared the user experience of mercedes vs honda… the attention to detail, not the price, prestige, grip on the oval or horsepower. he did not say iphone was elitist, prestigious as compared to android. he just said there’s so much more attention to detail in iOS, which is true.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 6:26 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
I don’t believe that to be the case. I think that when you read statements like “You either see it or you don’t.” and “The majority of Android users will probably think such criticism is bullshit, but that has always been the case.”… well, that’s pretty straight-forward with not much room for misinterpretation…
I can’t help but feeling that those statements were not just about saying that iOS is polished, it’s about putting people down, hurting them and create “classism” in a way.
Why on earth would you say those things?, Couldn’t it be that I tried an iPhone and “GOT IT” but did not like it???. I get that you think they didn’t mean it like that but if that’s the case then it was mediocre writing at best bc that’s the way it came out…
Much Love!
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 1:47 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I owned an iPhone for two years (2008-2010) and an Ipad 2 since March. The idea that Android users have no experience with iOS is simply ridiculous. And exactly the kind of elitism I would expect from those two – they think owning an Apple product is somehow like the Hotel California.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 5:44 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
I’d say Gruber was wrong to say people just don’t see it. Maybe many people do. But the fact of the matter is, the polish is there. It is a more polished OS compared to the Android ecosystem in general. I haven’t spent a lot of time messing with Androids. A few friends have them and they chose well. Their devices seem to work great.
But the fit and finish is there in iOS for anyone to see. What’s surprising is that many Andoid users won’t admit it for political reasons. NOT because they can’t see it. And that’s just as bone-headed ask Siegler and Gruber are the other way.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 5:49 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Dude / dudette, English is my fourth of fifth language, but even I know that Gruber never said what you claim he said. He never said “people just don’t see it”, he said – and I quote here – .
It’s one thing to misinterpret his words, which Josh did big time, but if you can’t be bothered to scroll enough to actually check what was really said…Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 6:36 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Dude, get over yourself. I paraphrased him. I saw it the day before, forgot the exact wording, but I challenge you to show there’s a significant difference in meaning between what I remembered and what he said. The point being, people either see it or they don’t. And he’s wrong. My point was that they might see it, but are unwilling to admit there’s a qualitative difference between iOS and Android.
Next time, try to contribute something useful to the discussion.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 6:47 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
You didn’t paraphrase him, you misquoted him and by doing so misrepresented his position. It’s as if I said “We could have pizza or steak for lunch” and you’d then go “bulbul said everybody should eat pizza.” That’s clearly not what I said and it is not a paraphrase by even the most generous of definitions.
Here’s my contribution to the debate: explaining the ethics of quoting and citing to the likes of you.
This is what pisses me off: you didn’t even bother to check! At worst, you’d have to actually find Gruber’s site and see what he actually said, but since Josh was kind enough to quote Gruber, all you had to do is move A FINGER. And yet, you didn’t. Let everyone draw their own conclusion.
No, your point was – and I am not paraphrasing here – is that Gruber was wrong. Not the real Gruber, mind you, some imaginary Gruber that only exists in your head.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 6:58 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
The “polish” everyone talks about with iPhone and iOS more generally makes me absolutely gag. All the fake metal, fake felt, fake notebooks, fake leather, graphical microphones, etc. It seems like something a talented teenager would design. A non-functional glass back is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard of…I thought so when it was released and I think so now. I can’t see any justification for the glass back other than many people think it looks nice, and I find that very telling about the motivation of many Apple fanatics. That glass is the very epitome of function following form, rather than the other way around.
Of course, reasonable people may disagree with me, and many do. What I hate is how Apple devotees act like the superiority of Apple’s design is somehow a fact, rather than some collective opinion.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 3:54 AM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
I think you totally missed his point – he’s not talking about expensive vs inexpensive – . He’s talking about finish quality. Last I saw, the iPhone wasn’t more expensive than the Galaxy Nexus.
Overreact much?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 5:55 PM EST reply Recommend (5) Flag actions
Josh is insulted because he’s been a huge fan of the Nexus since he got it, and after reading this MG Siegler review, Josh has been lumped into a group of ‘so-called’ peons who don’t understand design (or don’t care), or in the words of Steve Jobs, “just have no taste.”
This is an understandably personal reaction from Josh, and if he doesn’t ‘explain himself’ he would reside, in the eyes of John G. and MG, with the ‘peons.’
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 6:29 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
Or you’re butthurt that he tore MGS a new one.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 6:32 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
He did? Ha. You call that ‘tearing him a new one’? Pfft.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 1:52 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I agree. The Nexus and iPhone are both priced like a Mercedes (that is, the high end) so the issue isn’t about class warfare here.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 6:47 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I just registered to say a huge Thank You Josh.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 6:03 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
wrong. I can’t believe how wrong you can misinterpret things,
he did NOT say that. you said it and got mad about it. but his quote does not say that.
you made some obscure generalizations about class warfare and whatnot but that quote was about user experience of mercedes/honda and ios/android… and that is spot on. no, he did not talk about product price, brand prestige, horsepower, you made those generalizations based on nothing.
you can argue the user experience on ICS is on par with iOS, but you immediately went to people not being able to buy mercedes. you just totally misinterpreted it.
you were just… wrong… and the vergecast was just… wronger
—there’s a million posts in this forum so there’s no way anybody will read this but I just had to… SOMEONE WAS WRONG ON THE INTERNET!!!
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 6:17 PM EST reply Recommend (3) Flag actions
Hey, I just want to let you know I’ll always be here, watching you.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 7:18 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Time and time again, Gruber has cited numbers (app downloads, web browsing stats, $ spent and paid out to devs on respective app stores) that show that Android users, by and large, use their smartphones like they’re dumbphones.
In other words, they just go to the store, pick up a new ‘phone’ (which happens to be an android phone), and use it like a nice phone with a pretty touch screen. Most users ARE NOT discriminating in this regard, just as most PC users (eg. PC and Mac users combined) are NOT discriminating about the software on the computer at the office. Caring about this stuff makes you a geek. That’s the exception, not the rule.
To be a geek who prefers Android over iOS, therefore, must NOT be about polish or design (something which Apple exceeds in and Google does not), but about Openness and ‘hackability’, something geeks DO love. So there can be two kinds of geeks (for our purposes here… there are more than two of course): Design Geeks and Hackers. The Design Geeks (like Josh and John and pretty much everyone on the Vergecast) use Apple Stuff and Hackers (um.. Verge commenters?) use Android. Ok, what about the vast vast majority of people who don’t fall into these two camps: they ask their friends what to buy, or walk into ATT and buy the new thing. They’re the ones who are indiscriminate, the non-techies. And the vast majority of Android users are NOT passionate fans who would disagree with MG Siegler, in fact, they don’t give a shit. They’re using their sexy new Samsung phone like it’s a dumbphone with a big screen.
You either care about this stuff or you don’t.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 6:25 PM EST reply Recommend (3) Flag actions
As to the stats cited in the first paragraph, note that while Android seems to be winning in marketshare, Apple continues to win in all the usability stats. That is the crucial distinction to leads to the understanding that Android users, on average, use their phones like dumbphones. That’s indiscriminate.
To be a discriminating Android user is the exception, not the norm. I’m not saying it’s impossible.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 6:27 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Pretty pointless rant. ICS definitely doesn’t exude the same level of polish iOS does. The class warfare remarks are completely out-of-whack. Android fans do tend to scoff at the experience/feel/look of iOS devices in favor of the easy understandable and listable “features” Android devices have.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 6:37 PM EST reply Recommend (4) Flag actions
Seriously? Getting panties bunched up over Apple-biased content from Gruber and MG? I realize Topolsky has gone Android fighter as his new journalistic style, but I see this as just pandering to the Fandroids because up-front biased Apple lovers didn’t fall over the Galaxy Nexus. That’s like complaining about a sports team booster club not rooting for the opposing team. Topolosky is the only one claiming to be objective here. Yeah, maybe he’s objective building readership for TheVerge by playing off of passions. Is Topolsky now going to go after biased anti-Apple content on sites like droid-life or android central? Uh, sure.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 6:40 PM EST reply Recommend (3) Flag actions
You’re missing the point here, he’s not favoring any OS over the other, he just doesn’t like their condescending tone. Everyone here is missing the point, it’s not about an OS versus another OS, or anything versus anything. It’s the attitude that my choice is great and you must be blind (and idiotic) if you don’t see it! Well, maybe I do see what you like and I appreciate it but you know, I like what I like and that’s it. It’s great that there are choices, no need to bash anyone for their choice though.
Android Central, they don’t bash the iPhone. What are you talking about? They don’t really even mention it much (I’m not talking about the forums, but the editors themselves. Phil Nickinson has always said the iPhone is a fine choice (his wife has an iPhone), just for different users. Read before you judge.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 6:50 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
I have a GN on order, and I didn’t read the material as condescending. Pointed and biased, yes. I guess I’m just not that sensitive. I regularly get a kick out of reading Gruber’s stuff and sometimes enjoy reading MG.
There is always Apple bashing on every android site I view, a rather long list. I suppose most of it is in the comments. And I do admit that Phil is reasonable (and seriously hard working). But as a person who has and uses both an android phone and an iPhone, I find the “android army” to be more rabid in attacking Apple than vice versa. Goes both ways, no doubt, but I find the culture of hate is stronger on the android side. iPhone users have clear feature gripes about android. Android users tend to label iPhone people as girls, sheep who follow, or non-technical types. Talk about condescending. Just my experience.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 9:39 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
When people discuss the “polish” of Apple products I feel they miss the point. Apple only polishes when a polished surface functions better. The folks who truly appreciate Apple products are those who truly understand the thought behind every nuance of their design. These aren’t products for spec heads or anyone on the autistic spectrum. You either see it or you don’t. Gruber is right.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 7:00 PM EST reply Recommend (4) Flag actions
I think Gruber is just trying to be like his idol, Steve Jobs. Am I the only one seeing that he is trying to imitate him? (i.e., being an asshole and always thinking he’s right). Anyway, just my first impression of him after seeing him on “On the Verge”
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 7:07 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Or maybe, just maybe, he likes Steve Jobs because he already thought/acted like this 10 years ago. Your theory is valid, but implies that JG is a poseur. My theory is also valid, but suggests that they’re just cut of the same cloth (which takes a lot less effort).
Why do MMA fans tend to look like the guys in the Octagon? Because they’re poseurs? Or are they MMA fans because they were already like that to begin with, and they just found a hobby where they could let it all out?
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 1:49 AM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
I used to read Engadget. Now I read the Verge. Occasionally I feel like I’m missing something by not reading many other tech sites. But now I know. I’m not missing much at all.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 7:23 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I officially have a mancrush on Josh now. Well said, sir.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 7:31 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
And you people thought Arrington was the only one who uses a respectable tech blog to come unhinged and air out all his petty grievances in public…
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 7:36 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
Really well said. About time someone said it, too.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 7:38 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
http://parislemon.com/?utm_source=urmom&utm_medium=clicks&utm_term=MG_IS_A_DOUCHE&utm_campaign=DOUCHING_IT_UP
rite?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 7:45 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
It’s a coincidence how Gruber was just interviewed and also Sarah Lane (who I believe is MG Siegler’s wife btw) for “5 Minutes” and now all this happens in the same week. haha
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 7:50 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I think Josh missed the entire point MG was trying to make. Never did MG say that because the iPhone cost more it’s better. In fact, the iPhone and most Androids are priced the same; $199 for 16gb and $299 for 32gb. So price can’t be it. MG mentioned polish because he feels iPhones are better crafted. Whether he’s right or wrong is neither here nor there; instead the point is that it’s a matter of quality, and he believes Android is an inferior product. There’s nothing wrong with that opinion, even if it happens to be wrong.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 7:53 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I don’t get the outrage here at all. Someone above said this isn’t politics. Exactly. When I’m reading a review, no matter where, I grok that I’m reading someone’s OPINION. That my mileage might vary. As an intelligent reader and consumer, I can separate what’s pure opinion vs. what might be valid criticism or praise.
When I’m reading Gruber or MG Siegler, I get that they’re coming from a point of review. I know it going in. As an avid reader of Josh and Nilay and Paul and Joanna and Chris Z, I also know where they’re coming from. Most times I agree with them. Sometimes I don’t. What I don’t do is ever take this stuff personally.
Daniel Eran Dilger, from Roughly Drafted is someone I read. If you think Gruber is pro-Apple, Dilger might as well be on Cupertino’s payroll. Sometimes I roll my eyes at his conclusions and spin, but there are usually glimmers of goodness in his pieces, too.
I think the real condescension is thinking readers don’t get that EVERY site has bias, some benign and some not.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 7:55 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
People have been saying the Mercedes/Honda comparison isn’t accurate and that it should be more like a Mercedes/BMW analogy. While I agree, I believe this illustrates the point Josh is making. MG sees Android as a Honda. He refuses to see Android as a BMW. If he did, he might acknowledge that it’s great in its own right, but he prefers a Mercedes. Instead, his tone suggests he sees everything that’s not his preference as inferior, i.e. everything that’s not his Mercedes is a Honda, and if you don’t agree, you have no taste. I believe that’s the condescending, snobbish attitude that set Josh off.
That’s the attitude I got from the review, and yes, I did read the whole. I am an Android user, but I have used iPhones and iPads a good bit. I appreciate the attention to detail that goes into them, but they’re not my cup of tea. Up until ICS, I did kinda feel like the general UI of Android was lacking, but since the update, I have no more qualms about it at all. I’m extremely satisfied with ICS and see it as completely refined, lacking nothing.
Perception. That’s it.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 8:30 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
“Mercedes/BMW” But aren’t Android users always saying that Apple gear lacks functionality? Isn’t that the point? And aren’t Macs and iPhones “overpriced” and “overmarketed” and “overhyped”?
Why’s the Honda analogy apt? Because it’s been proven time and time again, that Android users use their phones like dumbphones. Most of that power and all those Apps are for naught. iPhone users, despite declining marketshare, continue to drive the mobile economy and mobile web usage.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 10:34 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
O.o What? What Android users have you observed? The ones I know do everything the iPhone owners I know do, plus all the stuff iPhone owners can’t do.
Source please? Otherwise you’re just spouting off the stuff biased bloggers like MG and Apple’s marketing department tell you.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 4:00 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Seriously?
I don’t know about the dumbphone comment, although more apps are downloaded from the App Store on iOS than the Android Market on the more popular Android, so there is at least some basis.
The other claims aren’t exactly hard to substantiate.
Apple iOS owns mobile browser share at over 61%
Search for two seconds and you will find many articles like this one.
Developers see more money with iOS than Android
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 2:53 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
What is hilarious is that if you have a lot of dough, you probably don’t have a lot of time. I, despite my high posting volume here lately, have very very little time (wish I had more money though). I was and am super excited about the Galaxy Nexus, like SUPER excited, because of its ability to make me more productive and SAVE ME TIME. I use everything Google, because practically everything Google makes is a productivity enhancer. I bought a Verizon GNex today, and so far it is fantastic for that purpose. It also looks and feels nice, but who cares. I travel a ton internationally, and that’s one drawback of the Verizon version, but I think I’m going to go ahead and buy a GSM one as well (not my dime, work will pay).
I don’t expect people who live in a world where the tech is the end in and of itself to understand this. I don’t expect Gruber or his minions to get that the thing they organize their lives around is either a plaything or a tool for most people. For me it is a little of both, and much more the latter. What a handset is not is central to my life. It facilitates communications with the things that are central though, and for that reason it is important. Android flatly DOES THIS BETTER than the iPhone, and I don’t really think a serious person can argue that it does not.
That is why it seems like Apple fanboy criticism of Android always seems to come down to how it looks and feels. The ironic thing about that is that while they can look and touch their device a lot and remind themselves how fancy it is, what Android does is, to coin a phrase, “just work.”
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 8:30 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Ouch.
http://parislemon.com/post/14286785030/horseshit
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 8:30 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
MG’s reply to Josh’s post: http://parislemon.com/post/14286785030/horseshit
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 8:35 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Boy this guy can really skew things up and warp it to his side of things can’t he? Absolute master at hiding his fanboysim. Not saying it’s a bad thing to be like that though.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 8:36 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Oh please.
It’s easy to just say “omg this guy is such a fanboy!”, it’s detrimental to reasonable discourse and it’s purely dismissive.
Elaborate, don’t just stop by and utter garbage like “omg fanboy!”.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 9:55 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
To be clear, these are two Apple fanboys squabbling. They shouldn’t be fighting. But since Josh attacked John on the recent show (worst interview in ages, btw) he’s now ‘siding’ with Android and coming out guns blazing. This is starting to get super awkward.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 10:31 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
That interview was pretty bad. I’m glad Gruber appreciated it, because I certainly didn’t get anything out of it that I couldn’t have heard in an average talk show episode.
Rather than “This is Gruber, here’s what he does and why he’s awesome” it was “Here’s Gruber, now let’s hear him defend himself against the people who don’t like him”.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 7:14 AM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Yeah, but its true about price… A pure google experience generally costs more than a pure iOS experience.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 8:37 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Except that the Galaxy Nexus at 32 GB is being positioned against the 32 GB iPhone 4S and both are the same price and so MG’s comparison is another example of iOS fans warping facts to fit their story.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 9:51 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
is there a 16 gig nexus?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 11:23 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I believe that there is a 16 GB model but it is not the one being sold in the U.S. I was merely referring to the fact that the iPhone has pretty much established this pricing structure where the latest iPhone model is price tiered based on storage space with the 16 GB being $199, the 32 GB being $299, and the 64 GB being $399. The Galaxy Nexus came out in the U.S. with the 32 GB model only and so it matched the 32 GB iPhone 4S at the $299 price point. MG’s claim that the Galaxy Nexus is actually more expensive than the iPhone 4S is nonsense because it is a complete apples versus oranges comparison and dodges the fact that while Josh briefly mentioned the fallacy of believing that expensive things are better, he quickly establishes that the heart of the problem is the mindset that "those that are ascribed more value by a segment of the population are inherently “better” than other things."
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 1:18 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Josh. Stop it. This really demonstrates the perspective of being a “tech toddler”. How is this any different than “Microsoft vs. Apple”. The game hasn’t changed, only the participants.
Why you would get so upset about CONSISTENTLY BIASED “bloggers” that utter the same opinion. You know who they are and what they stand for, we do too. There will always be fringe supporters. Politics and technology alike.
You are doing a fantastic job with this site. Don’t subtract form it. Continue to remain a professional.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 8:39 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
MG just pwned your ass.
We get it.
You can’t afford to have an opinion, you need to be a “journalist”, not a “blogger” like Gruber.
It’s easier, you get to have your holier than thou attitude and to look down on people that actually have a spine.
Having a spine is risky and it would also drive some of that juicy traffic away because you won’t be able to be all things to all people any more.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 8:57 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
bit harsh.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 9:07 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
just add, it think Josh (and co.) have clearly showed spine and GREAT BALLS in leaving the comforts of Engadget and setting up The Verge.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 9:09 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Irrelevant. Yes, they have balls in this entire enterprise. What does that have to do… even remotely … with this conversation?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 10:29 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
It takes more spine to stand up and look at the world through an objective lens than it does to lie down and take everything one company feeds you.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 10:36 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Adent, been reading your posts and you definitely have an Apple bias, so I dismiss what you said
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 12:00 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Okay the Mercedes to Honda thing wasn’t at all about class. I think you took it wrong. It was more about detail. A Mercedes has a lot of detail in the car just like the iPhone, the Honda doesn’t have all the little features and polish similar to Android. So it’s hard for someone with an iPhone (Mercedes) that is accustomed to polish to explain to someone with Android (Honda) that isn’t accustomed to polish how polish actually makes the phone itself and experience better. I don’t believe it was at all about class or money. After all the Android phone is more expensive. But just for the record I don’t like parislemon, I think he is a prick. I just happen to not agree with what you’re saying about class. I don’t think it was meant that way, it’s just the way you took it.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 9:06 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
gruber should man up and allow comments on his posts ;)
and you think you’ve seen flame wars before!
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 9:39 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
This won’t get read, but I feel obligated to share my thoughts anyway in this vast sea of comments about this post.
Josh is right (in my opinion). It’s people like Gruber who encourage a war of fanboyism, and not the good, healthy debatable kind. He is all about “I am RIGHT, and you are WRONG, and that makes me better than you” which is so outrageous, it infuriates me. He is entitled to his opinion, but when his opinion is bluntly mocking anyone who uses any other device besides his precious Apple products, it’s like he’s trying to show how “right” he is, and why you should burn in hell for not being “right” like him, and that you will NEVER be “right” because you showed how you already made one “wrong” decision already.
I own an iPhone and I love it. However, I don’t look at all other phones as WRONG or that uninformed people use them. It’s personal preference, and he needs to get over that not everyone wants to have the same opinion as him. Nor do they WANT the same opinion as him. How does anyone have a conversation with Gruber without getting into a heated debate? He must have some really passive friends.
How do I know that Gruber’s vision of a black and white world is absolutely distorted? Because there is no right or wrong. It doesn’t exist. Whatever you think is right, is right. Whatever you think is wrong, is wrong. But don’t tell me my “right” is your “wrong.” in the court of public opinion. Ever.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 9:44 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
I’ve never seen Gruber mock anyone using any other device besides an Apple device, nor have I ever seen him say that using an Android phone is doing it wrong.
Can you show me where he did this?
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 9:52 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
Yes, please, show your work. It will be difficult, because your premise is incorrect. But it’ll be fun to watch you try. If you can’t show your work, then please stop feeling obligated to share your thoughts.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 10:34 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
It seems a little silly to be infuriated by your own strawman.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 2:31 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
MG Responds calling Josh an Android appeaser. “http://parislemon.com/post/14286785030/horseshit”
It’s important to remember here that
a) Google communicated with MG and was very appreciative of his candour in the original review
b) Josh is a HUGE Apple customer. He maybe flirting with the Nexus these days (or making sweet sweet love to it as I write this), but he’s a Mac user who basically just wrapped a On the Verge show all about Apple:
-John Gruber Interview, talking about Apple and Steve Jobs
-A giddy tour of the Apple Store with Paul Miller
-A segment where Josh himself refers to Windows as poison, looking at Laptops that might get him to switch (but let’s be honest… that ain’t happening). The premise of the segment is that Josh despises the aesthetic of Windows.
In other words, Josh himself is an Apple guy. So why is he bashing John Gruber for basically being a guy who only cares about products that are carefully designed? Maybe he’s trying to make the Android users in the audience happy. With this latest ‘culture war’/‘class warfare’ routine, he’s casting iPhone/Apple customers as elitists/snobs (mind numbingly boring in its unoriginality), but NOT because of the cost of Apple products: A MacBook air for $1000 is an AWESOME computer. An iPad at $500 was a very low price (jut ask Apple competitors who are still flailing around). The iPhone is the exact same price as all current gen smartphones. Apple isn’t about expensive, its about ‘careful design’—-and by that I mean ‘full of care’. Apple designers care about the details more than other companies (HP, MS, Google, you name it). The reason you have Apple Fanboys in the first place is because this attention to detail resonates with a group customers that are passionate about great design… um… such as one Joshua Topolsky, who’s spent thousands and thousands of dollars on Apple gear.
So what’s the argument here? Someone just reiterated what we all know and believe to be the difference between Mac OS X and Windows (and iOS and Android), and Josh was having his period. Bad timing, I guess. Either that or Josh and Mattias are hardcore BFF’s these days.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 10:28 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
Why does Josh have to have some kind of secret motive here?
His post has almost nothing to do with Apple vs Android. It’s about the attitude that when others use a product you don’t particularly like, you think they have poor taste and “just don’t get it”.
Why is it so hard to believe that Josh is speaking honestly? Just because he prefers mac to windows does not mean he is blindly following Apple and only praises Android to appease his readership.
That line of logic is, at best, delusional and paranoid .
Posted on Dec 18, 2011 | 2:17 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
The analogy was specifically about “fine polish” and “attention to detail.” And not at all about the empirical value of expensive things.
Mr. Topolsky, you could stand to pay a little more attention to detail yourself.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 10:30 PM EST reply Recommend (8) Flag actions
Josh, the first (and only) problem you had was taking MG’s opinion seriously.
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 11:28 PM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
Smart.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 1:41 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Truth. Taking anything seriously that MG says about a non-Apple product is very silly. He’s always been an Apple blogger rather than more generally a tech blogger, in the same way that the WinRumors guys are Microsoft bloggers. It isn’t fair to call him a fanboy, exactly, but he is squarely in one camp, as his screed in response to Josh clearly illustrates. He also seems to be pretty thin skinned. The point is, a MG review of an Android product was going to be biased and pretty vile from the start. Anyone who reads any blog like these would know that ahead of time. The problem is that he has much influence over the more “legit” press, which quotes him often, and he seems so captured by Apple that he’s almost an arm of their marketing machine on this point, though I’m sure that description would rankle with him quite severely.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 4:11 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
What is wrong with having an opinion? MG believes in a basic philosophy, Apple caters to that philosophy, so he tends to side with them more than not. That doesn’t mean he always takes their side no matter what. That would make him biased, but he doesn’t do that. As he said, he is just opinionated and I don’t see anything wrong with that.
It’s why I look forward to reading opinionated blogs more than the straight news blogs.
Maybe it’s just because I have a strong opinion and like to write things other than just the news or facts.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 10:59 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I saved you the trouble of writing a reply to MG Siegler — http://ragingthunderbolt.tumblr.com/post/14296776537/wah-wah-wah
Posted on Dec 15, 2011 | 11:57 PM EST reply Recommend (4) Flag actions
Very well said, and absolutely true. Big recommend.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 4:14 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Nobody likes to be told they’re less sophisticated, have poorer taste or less appreciation for the finer things in life, least of all JT it seems. Does this mean you shouldn’t speak the truth the way you see it? Perhaps. JT’s post and the ensuing thread did certainly do damage to The Verge, in my opinion.
Siegler’s car analogy was poorly chosen (aren’t they always?), I think we can all agree on that.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 12:07 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
dumb. JT’s point about taste and ‘class warfare’ is getting all the attention, but he was calling MG out for intellectual dishonesty more than anything. It is absolute horseshit to use “you see it or you don’t” as anything meant to resemble an argument, because it assumes as fact that there is an entire group of people who simply has an incorrect opinion.
I personally think iOS and iPhone’s celebrated fit and finish is totally nauseating…all the pretend metal and leather and using glass for non-functional reasons and whatnot…I think it is childish design, and even unsophisticated. But I’m prepared for the fact that many others have a different opinion. I don’t think those people are worthy of disrespect.I don’t think people who like that stuff are just some poor benighted masses who just don’t know any better. It would be condescending and disrespectful if I implied that.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 4:23 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
All the things you mention as examples of “fit and finish” are widely disliked by the same people who tend to celebrate the attention to detail of iOS. Gruber, and almost certainly Siegler (I don’t really remember him talking about it so I’m guessing) don’t care much for the skeuomorphic design trend either.
That’s not what constitutes the difference. Things like touch response are.
And it’s not that one opinion is incorrect. It’s that those who prefer the iPhone does so because of something that simply isn’t even a factor for many Android users.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 2:25 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Siegler’s response and other’s response that the Galaxy Nexus costs more than the iPhone is flawed imo. The 299.99 price of the Nexus, I believe, is just some arbitrary price that Verizon set just cause it’s an LTE phone (Verizon set all their LTE phones at this price). It’s also worth noting that this phone has 32 GB.
Now the real comparison. Verizon states that the retail price of the Nexus is 649.99 off contract for a 32 GB model. In comparison, the iPhone unlocked off contract is also 649.99 but just for the 16 GB model and if you want a comparable iPhone 32 GB model off contract, it’s 749.99. So 32 GB Nexus for 649.99 and 32 GB iPhone is 749.99. So the price blame is Verizon’s premium for LTE, but off contract, it’s a different story.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 12:18 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
The way I see this, Josh has always been seen as an Apple fanboy and now he is desperately trying to get rid of that image and show how neutral he is and how much he loves Android. And what’s the best way to get into the Android club? By raging against the Apple fans, of course.
MG and Gruber behaved the way they always have. And even though MG is known to be a huge Apple fanboy I thought his Galaxy Nexus review was quite fair. It’s the sudden shift in Josh’s behavior that I find surprising.
What is it Josh? Is it really that necessary to please everyone? Can’t you just be honest and not care what others think? I know the number of Android fans and Apple haters is rising everyday, but you’re a writer, not some troll fishing for ’Like’s and ’+1’s in the comments section. I really enjoy your writing. Don’t turn into another yes man who will say he likes something just to keep everyone happy.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 12:26 AM EST reply Recommend (9) Flag actions
Kinda like another Tech Journalist I know:
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 1:40 AM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
No idea who what is but that’s one hilarious image.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 3:00 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
That’s Leo Laporte of TwiT.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 7:28 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Leo is different though. He legitimately seems to like EVERYTHING new. At least initially.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 2:18 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
i think you nailed it krazy.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 9:41 AM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Can’t somebody change their OS preference. I loved iOS until Android 2.2. Then Android fit my needs and wants more than iOS from then on. Sometimes that happens. So, I find no wrong in the fact that he changed his preference. Sometimes you have to use and know both and make a decision from there. You also have to be open minded, I’m even considering Windows Phone 7. Things change, people change. Its only human nature.
Josh is a well known tech writer. Therefore he has the opportunity to voice his opinions to a larger audience. Obviously the audience is a split camp. Some iOS and some Android. Therefore he can never make both sides happy. He has given the iPhone props for what it is. He just chooses to use Android because it fits his needs. He has also admitted Android’s shortcomings. But, in order to be fair he has to admit the shortcomings of iOS as well. iOS isn’t perfect. Neither is Android. Yet both sides do get riled up when these shortfalls are admitted.
Basically there is nothing wrong with changing your OS preference, and then talking about it. He’s a person. Give him some breathing room. It’s all an opinion.
Posted on Dec 26, 2011 | 11:02 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
This quote says it all for me.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 12:36 AM EST reply Recommend (6) Flag actions
It just doesn’t really address Siegler’s original review at all.
He is mostly positive about the Nexus, except for a couple of things. He is by no means saying the iPhone is the only great device.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 2:16 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
He called it the best phone ever made other than the iPhone. Very high praise if you ask me.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 2:17 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
“It’s not like we’re in some battle.” (Josh on the podcast)
Looks like Siegler feels differently…. http://parislemon.com/post/14286785030/horseshit
For the record, I don’t think either of the guys were necessarily wrong, but Siegler took this way too personally and this shows he’s not nearly as professional as Josh..
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 12:51 AM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Wow, and he’s such a douche:
I don’t know about you, but some people – like myself – have open minds and like more than one thing. Some people can’t (or don’t want to) “fucking pick one”.
Also, it’s an object… a little machine… it’s meaningless. What a baby.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 1:14 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Wait, doesn’t Siegler write for the Verge? Is he the guy who looks like he’s sleepy all the time? Was on Attack of the Show a few times?
Oh the TRAFFIC this will bring to Parislemon, Techcrunch, The Verge, Daring Fireball… this is GOLD!
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 1:19 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
" Is he the guy who looks like he’s sleepy all the time? "
LMFAO.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 1:39 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Instead, he pussyfoots around it. One is great at some things, the other is great at others. Barf.
That’s what reviewers do, they give pros and cons and compare it to others, in a balanced fair way. Only non-journalists and biased people like Siegler would do what he said Josh should do. You take the different views, pros, cons, etc. and decide for yourself. The reviewer doesn’t decide for you, only gives their opinion and gives you all the information you need to decide for yourself. I guess Siegler is used to others deciding for him (i.e. Apple) on what he should like.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 1:40 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
EDIT: First sentence is a quote from Siegler
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 1:40 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I read the response, and just gave up.
Calling someone out for saying ‘I think…’ in a day one review? No one can give a definitive review in such a short space of time. I have no doubt that Joshua Topolsky hates being wrong as much as anyone else, look at how he reacts to being reminded of the Atrix – and I hasten to add, he has never tried to hide his original thoughts.
As for the ‘specs mattering’ they don’t between the OSs, but they do within an OS (Android and to a lesser extent WP).
What was truly repellent was the accusation of following, and that he was waiting for Josh to use the Mercedes/Honda analogy.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 5:51 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
you honestly call SG’s response babyish after reading the above? Personally, imo it’s toddlers, but jesus, he’s right. Josh got mad.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 9:40 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Josh..kudos to you. MG Siegler is pretty much an Apple troll trapped in a human body while pretending to be a VC with someone else’s money. He long ago put down the ‘blogger/journalist’ mantle and has basically become this generation’s Andy Rooney except without the folksy anecdotes.
He’s a petty, unprofessional, attention-starved kid. So glad he’s finally being called out. Again, kudos for speaking the truth.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 1:01 AM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
I doubt Josh will see this and I doubt even more that he will care, but for what it’s worth, I completely agree. I’m a big Apple fan and avid reader of both Daring Fireball and The Verge and I nodded my head throughout this entire post.
Well done.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 1:05 AM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
I see it. I care. :)
Posted on Dec 20, 2011 | 1:53 AM EST reply Recommend (4) Flag actions
The class warfare angle is just grist for Siegler’s mill. It’s just a matter of old fashioned snobbery – you’re either in the club or you ain’t.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 1:39 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
This was downright embarrassing to read. If a fan had posted this exact same post he would have been told that he was being ridiculous and that he shouldn’t care about what other people think.
I don’t even know why JT felt the need to post this. Did the “Windows is Poison” comment really get so much negative feedback that you shifted to a “Everything is wonderful and anyone who said otherwise is silly” stance?
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 1:47 AM EST reply Recommend (6) Flag actions
My thoughts precisely. This seems more like a balancing act but in trying to do that Josh has gone too far on the other side, while completely missing the point MG was making.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 2:59 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
pretty much this
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 9:39 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
You forget that he was more or less joking when he said it and it was not in a review of an Windows product.
This is a response to a serious review, or at least it should be. And saying iOS is the ultimate best and other people just don’t see it is just wrong. If he had said he liked/preferred it it wouldn’t be a problem.
Presenting your bias as fact is just bad reviewing.
Posted on Dec 17, 2011 | 11:29 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
There is no Mercedes of mobile computing. Luxury is about doing more than just working. The iPhone is exclusively about just working. Apple is the Honda. Anything less is the Ford Pinto.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 2:39 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Just checking, but is making non-functional parts of your phone out of glass all about “just working?”
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 4:27 AM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Did you get layed off from a glass factory or something?
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 5:05 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
The part where Josh equates MG’s comments on “Mercedes vs. Honda” to “expensive is better” is just plain wrong. Unfortunately Josh missed it, and MG points out his response on his blog points this out. This is no Android vs iOS.
However, Josh gets it in the last few paragraphs. Nothing is black, or white in this world.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 2:45 AM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
“Let’s not let our preferences (and that’s all they are, preferences, not empirical facts) dictate how we think about and relate to other people.”
Of course your preferences matters !
If I wanted facts I would get them from technical reviews or user manuals.
I want YOUR opinion and others’, it’s MY job to carrefully sort those points of view to make my own opinion.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 2:50 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Wow, while I don’t agree with everything Josh said, I loved how much passion he has, you can almost hear the frustration in is words. This is why I the verge is my new favorite tech blog. I hope we see more real opinionated posts like this in the future.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 2:53 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Passion is cool, when it’s backed by a well-thought-out opinion. When it’s just knee-jerk it seems a little silly.
“Class warfare”?
“Hurts our community”?
Seriously?
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 2:02 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
I am so loving this.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 3:07 AM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
hey mg, i thought josh’s “stance” was loud and clear: the nexus is the best android phone and one of the best smartphones ever made. and what’s the point of ever getting an ‘stance’ from the likes of you and gruber when it’s already a foregone conclusion in apple’s favor? this was a review of the nexus, not a showdown between the nexus and iphone 4s (a la road & track)…… capisce?
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 3:13 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Class warfare? Really Josh?
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 3:41 AM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
he’s going to re read all this in 5 days, and realize he’s the one being made to look petty and angry, cause that’s what happened.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 8:13 AM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
No kidding. That sentence was more pompous than anything Josh is complaining about. Not sure how phones that cost the same upfront and every month can be about class.
Josh is the only one here who implied that design and polish appreciation is something the lower class is capable of.
(I like Josh and Gruber both quite a bit but this post is silly.)
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 1:19 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Regarding “You either see it or you don’t.”: If you see that as a comment on stuttering and suboptimal reaction time to touches I think the quote is quite true. It drives me crazy when a touch device has a delay when responding to my input, and all Android devices (tablets and phones) I used and tested have that.
I notice that stuttering, but many colleagues and friends don’t … so you either see it or you don’t.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 3:53 AM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
MG response
my favorite part
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 5:10 AM EST reply Recommend (7) Flag actions
Arguments about these devices can go on ad infinitum, while the technologies themselves aren’t really at the heart of this issue. Gruber, Siegler and Topolsky are all ego-driven, but the first two are banging against the same old drum. The public is tired of their attitude. And incidentally, they don’t allow comments on their sites whilst we’re permitted to speak freely here. I think that says something as well.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 5:36 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Look, Josh is a design Guy, he has Vitsoe shelving for crying out loud! (So jealous). So in regards of this argument I smell horseshit but it ain’t coming from Gruber or Siegler. I love and respect Josh as much as anyone btw.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 5:56 AM EST reply Recommend (3) Flag actions
thank you. I feel the same way, i feel like these kids are supporting him for “cool points”. Think for yourself. Not for the brand of phone you have.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 8:12 AM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Not naming names and what set it off, but these are my thoughts: “Brand Loyalty, Fanboyism and Stupidity” http://bit.ly/vy9rKE
I have no issue referring to myself as a writer and a blogger – you need one to do the other right?
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 6:58 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Wow!!
So many word on this article and so little reality check!!
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 7:14 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
U mad MG?
Quotes from his response to this:
“Your entire post, on the other hand, makes you sound like a fool.”
“Instead, he pussyfoots around it. One is great at some things, the other is great at others. Barf.”
“To be honest, I’m not sure we can trust Topolsky anyway”
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 7:21 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
i hate to say this, MG is right.
This post makes Josh look stupid, and petty.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 8:11 AM EST reply Recommend (7) Flag actions
I am flabbergasted by Joshua’s reply and even more by the comments I read above. Does any of you understand what MG said? He was not comparing prices (the Nexus is in the same price range of the 4S, by the way, Do your homework before engaging the mouth or, rather, the fingers). He was comparing user experiences. Your stance on the price issue is ridiculous. And Joshua would render his readers a great service if he stopped being such a silly jerk and clearly put forward a clear and definitive position.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 7:41 AM EST reply Recommend (3) Flag actions
This whole price thing misses Josh’s point.
The point is that MG’s post claims that some people are superior while others aren’t, solely based on their opinion of a given product. Claiming that an entire userbase doesn’t “get” Apple is a completely ridiculous statement and has damaging logical implications.
Posted on Dec 18, 2011 | 2:29 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
And beside, market figures show that Nexus sales will be dwarfed by Mercedes, er, I mean IPhones. Everything else is moot
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 7:46 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Thanks Josh, i thought you were above this shit. I guess your not. Thanks, i thought this was a bastion of just tech knowledge, where lovers from every side come together to discuss.
it’s turning into engadget 2.0, and josh is pushing it now full boar (this is after my second read, and a read of the tech crunch article)
i have to say josh flipped his lid.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 8:10 AM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
Honda Accord’s driving experience is much better than Mercedes C class. Saying that mercedes is better than Honda is totally bullshit! Plus, Accord has a bigger and more powerful and more refined engine than any Mercedes and BMW at the same price.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 8:22 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Honda Accord’s driving experience is much better than Mercedes C class. Saying that mercedes is better than Honda is totally bullshit! Plus, Accord has a bigger and more powerful and more refined engine than any Mercedes and BMW at the same price.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 8:23 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Honda Accord’s driving experience is much better than Mercedes C class. Saying that mercedes is better than Honda is totally bullshit! Plus, Accord has a bigger and more powerful and more refined engine than any Mercedes and BMW at the same price.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 8:43 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Thank you, Josh.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 8:49 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I think both guys make good points (I’m not taking a stand, I know!). I also think they’re both a couple of the more intelligent and fun-to-read tech bloggers around. Please respond, Josh; I’m enjoying this!
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 9:30 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
This is BS! Josh goes back and forth from time to time and if you listen to his podcast he says the same things that MG and Gruber says! When MG is comparing a Honda to Benz, he’s not talking about class or wealth. Benz like Apple pays more attention to design and detail, and I think Josh would agree. I don’t get how he compares owning an iPhone to being rice and Android to being poor. Last I check the Galaxy Nexus cost more than the iPhone 4S.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 9:33 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
rich*
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 9:38 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
It’s titled “An iPhone lover’s take on…”, which should be indicative enough that some level of bias is presented in his not-so-much-a-review review.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 9:55 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
“It gets under my skin because it is a pompous, privileged, insulting, and myopic viewpoint "
MG and DaringGruberBall are both pompus and snarky … and that is why they get a good read.
Althought i prefer ( and have since Day 1 of Engadget ) your perspectives, JG and MG do what they do.
One of the points in all the points flying about this post, is that MG and JG dont care much if you dislike them, ( me being observational and ambivalent) and Josh Top is very likeable and cares.
Let them do as they do and Josh dont ever change what you do.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 10:03 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I’m also an Apple user and iPhone owner, but felt both MG and Gruber went about this all wrong.
The main issue though is that both sides perpetuate this type of behavior. I’ve seen an equal amount of hate-filled comments from Android users as iPhone users. Both sides just need to step back and realize that it’s a matter of choice. Apple fanboys attack Android owners for not having taste or knowing what a good product is, while Android owners attack iPhone owners for being sheep or all about pretty fluff. You can see it here in the trail of comments — it’s just getting ridiculous.
The key is respect. Neither side has it for the other and it’s just getting tiresome. There are merits to the Android approach and merits to the iPhone approach. Decide for yourself which matches your needs most closely and stop trying to take down the other side to make yourself feel superior. The community would be a lot better if we all just respected people’s opinions without jumping to generalizations.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 10:14 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
My WP7 is a Maybach, it’s so elite and exclusive and refined, you’ve probably never heard of it.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 10:30 AM EST reply Recommend (4) Flag actions
I told you, ICS changed Joshua in really profound way. 10/10 for ICS is not real and someone can say its biased because it is only 10/10 on the Galaxy Nexus and only with zero month of use.
Josh: if money is not the issue, which car would you pick? Mercedes or Honda? Don’t make it a class warfare when its really a quality and innovation issue.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 10:53 AM EST reply Recommend (2) Flag actions
You are confusing cost and value. Appropiate quote from Oscar Wilde.
The problem is that of seeing/not seeing rich/poor etc. But of education. Most people, even more so americans, want EVERYTHING and RIGHT NOW so they HAVE TO turn to CHEAP.
If you have VALUES and prefer to own QUALITY over QUANTITY they you will NOT get EVERYTHING, but just a FEW things which you DO CARE about, possibly SAVING for months in order to get it.
I do not own a car, I do not own a TV set, I do not own a house.
But I do own an iPad and an iPhone and an iMac and zero crapberries/or other landfil natives.
Be aware that the goal of the android makers is to take your money period. they have no other goal.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 10:54 AM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
I think you’ve got this the wrong way, Josh. Class warfare? Seriously? If you can afford a Galaxy Nexus or an iPhone, you are in the same class: those people who can afford expensive phone contracts. No one needs a smart phone.
I reckon MG was just making the point that all else being equal, one chump would plump down a bunch of cash for a Mercedes where another would go for the Honda for no better reason than that they would enjoy driving the Mercedes that much more that it makes the extra cash worth it. Maybe it’s because there are small differences that improve the experience. Maybe it’s just because it’s more expensive. But either way he or she is going to have a hard time explaining that to the Honda owner.
Over the years using various Apple products I have constantly come across small details that make me smile and enjoy using them that much more. These small, un-touted features are things you just don’t see from other companies, or at least, I haven’t much.
And they have to out-weigh the small un-touted features that drive you up the wall.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 11:05 AM EST reply Recommend (4) Flag actions
Now what if a new Mercedes and a new Honda cost the same price? Wouldn’t people who pick the Honda seem crazy? They would to me. The whole class warfare argument is clearly not well thought out — iPhones and Android phones cost the same. Duh.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 11:41 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
I think Gruber, MG and Co. are at a point where responding to their horseshit is the wrong thing to do. Rest of the world should just let them drown in their own diarrhea where they can circle jerk to their hearts contents without anyone bothering to look.
I mean just now Gruber gloated that even thieves want to rob only iPhones and not Droids. Superiority defined for the masses.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 11:42 AM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
I’m pretty sure Gruber was mainly joking. And, have you ever sat down and actually read any of his longform posts? On anything? He’s fair to non-Apple shit. He loves WP7. You’re just blinded by your own bias if you don’t think that.
Now, MG? MG is a lot more biased than Gruber. A lot. But, he echoes the sentiment that Gruber has—and a sentiment that is completely legitimate. The opinion that iOS5 is more polished than Android 4.0. And if there’s still UI lag in 4.0, they may have a point.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 1:26 PM EST reply Recommend (4) Flag actions
“I mean just now Gruber gloated that even thieves want to rob only iPhones and not Droids. Superiority defined for the masses.”
Aha, and what does that robbery story tell you about Android? You’ve got to understand, Google is building an Ad-platform. They need it to be good, or it won’t sell, but they don’t have the same priorities as Apple does. Gruber’s interests are almost perfectly aligned with Apple (which is why he’s been a fan for like 20 years, and writing a blog for almost 10).
Where you misstep is by calling John a fan of Apple first, and good quality second. That order is reversed, which is why things like… oh I don’t know… the death of the co-Founder… causes such consternation in the Apple community.
No one doubts that Apple will make billions of dollars for a long long time. What might happen, though, is that the innovation will slow down, and the products will get less interesting without Steve around. It’s the same reason why a company like, say, IBM, is making tons and tons of money, but no one ever talks about them (most certainly not John Gruber). Bo-ring. Microsoft was like that for a long time, and they’re starting to come around.
Posted on Dec 17, 2011 | 2:22 AM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
Im not even going speculate on if Josh was right or wrong in the interpretation of these guys. But it still stands that they got called out on a serious issue and all they have is in response to make more jokes. If someone accused me of looking down on other people I wouldn’t joke about that. I would put them in their place.
Gruber replied with a joke, and MG replied with an attack. He made some good points about that are totally irrelevant with this article. Than he did a troll move by basically claiming saying that Josh is mad, as if being mad invalid an opinion.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 12:04 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
“If someone accused me of looking down on other people I wouldn’t joke about that. I would put them in their place.”
Watch Episode 2 of On The Verge again. Someone’s definitely being smug and arrogant, but it isn’t Gruber.
Posted on Dec 17, 2011 | 2:16 AM EST reply Recommend (4) Flag actions
umm follow the money? this all goes back to when MA called out engadget for no reason other than he felt like tweaking them. And who just hired MGS? none other than MA. If that doesn’t call a top on the entire social networking venture capital bubble I don’t know what does.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 12:14 PM EST reply Recommend Flag actions
But wait a minute. Shouldn’t the Galaxy Nexus be the Mercedes? It is $299 while the iPhone 4S is $199. $100 more.
Posted on Dec 16, 2011 | 12:14 PM EST reply Recommend (1) Flag actions
The car analogy was a bad one, because cars and classism are so closely intertwined. If you remove the price, branding, etc. from the argument, it’s a good one. I’m a Honda Civic owner, but I’ve driven nicer cars. It’s har